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The current time is: 11/12/2018 3:38:23 PM
 (1863) Battle of Gettysburg
AuthorMessage
Larry Purtell
USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

The NY riot
Posted on: 7/14/2018 7:27:08 AM

---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4134

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/14/2018 11:02:53 AM
Hi Larry,

How horrific it must have been for those attacked? Makes you wonder if the attacking groups got away or were some brought to justice?

Any one?
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Larry Purtell
USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/14/2018 3:48:36 PM
My guess is only handful of those participating were ever arrested or prosecuted.

Larry
---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 30
E-5 Sergeant
Posts: 250

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/14/2018 5:53:38 PM
I understand that the actual number of rioters could not be determined because most were gathered up by their gang members ie The Dead Rabbits, etc and buried in the cellars in the 5 Points area of NYC.

Larry Purtell
USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/14/2018 6:57:41 PM
I have also seen several estimates of the number killed and they vary wildly. I think a couple of hundred at least.

Larry
---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 217

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/15/2018 7:53:16 PM
Were there draft riots elsewhere at this time? Why New York City? Was it because of a sizeable Black population?
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

Larry Purtell
USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/15/2018 8:09:06 PM
I believe there were draft riots in Troy and Buffalo NY. Nothing on the scale of New York City.
---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 30
E-5 Sergeant
Posts: 250

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/15/2018 9:31:52 PM
Portsmouth NH Draft Riot
From the Portsmouth (N.H.) Gazette, July 16. 1863

The following is as correct an account of the doings of the lawless crowd as we have been able to obtain in the excitement of the night. A large extra police force had been detailed, and, with the usual watchmen and the day police, instructed to prevent the congregation of any large crowd near the headquarters of the Provost-Marshal, Thursday night, the city authorities being determined that the outrages of the night previous should not be reenacted. Several well-disposed citizens, whom curiosity had drawn thither, appreciated the wisdom of the regulation, when it was suggested to them, and quietly withdrew. The first opposition was made by an Irishman, and as he absolutely refused to move, he was placed in the lock-up. Soon another person, an American, was arrested, and as he was being taken off, appealed to hi[???] "friends" for assistance. A rush was made to rescue him, the police resisted, one or two of the mob were seized, and a pistol was wrested from the bands of SAMPSON L. RUSSELL, who had been a prominent agitator and fomenter of discord during the past few days. The men who had been seized were taken to the Police-station and confined. This happened between 8 and 9 o'clock.

About 9 1/2 o'clock a mob of about 100 men, headed by this RUSSELL, RICHARD WALDEN and others, came to the Police station and demanded the pistol. They had come up from Water-street and vicinity, and made this their first demand. Their characters were well known to the Police, their real object well understood. Their demand was refused. Then they entered upon the foul work they had conspired to do, and made an assault upon the police. WALDEN selected one of the extra Police, Mr. GEO. FRETON, and made a cowardly and brutal attack on him with a long, square iron bolt. Mr. FRETON, who had nobly done his duty during the evening, received a severe and painful wound in the right wrist and arm in warding off a blow aimed at his head. A few moments after WALDEN gave the order to his fellow ruffians to "fire." Report followed report in rapid succession, of pistols.

Meanwhile Marshal BRAGDON had sent word to Mayor DEARBORN, who was in attendance at a meeting of the Board of Aldermen, that his presence was needed. He was promptly on the spot. Energetic measures were at once taken; the active members of the Board, as well as the Mayor, were equal to the emergency; the garrison at Fort Constitution, and the marines at the Navy-yard, were notified by signals that their assistance was required; a request was sent to Lieut. WELLES, in command of the guard at the Provost-Marshal's headquarter's, for immediate aid. Every one appealed to promptly responded. Many prominent and influential citizens united in the good work.

The Mayor reached the spot just as the pistols were discharged. Several shots were fired by the mob and by the Police. RUSSELL's revolver did good execution in the right hands. The leaders of the mob had had a taste of cold lead. Their deluded followers faltered and fell back. Presently Sergt. GRAY, with a small squad of soldiers from the headquarters of the Provost-Marshal, appeared; the faint gleam of their bayonets was seen in the dim light; they charged upon the mob, and it ran like sheep, taking their wounded with them. The mob was crushed. It was not long before a strong force of marines, under command of Col. MARSTON, arrived from the Navy-yard; and another of soldiers from the fort, under Lieut. WAINWRIGHT.

The only officer injured was Mr. FRETSON, as stated above. Officer JOHNSON had a narrow escape, a pistol ball passing through his glazed cap, within an inch of his head -- entering in front and passing out at the top. Of the rioters, WALDEN was wounded in the forehead, in the side and in the wrist; his wounds are thought to be dangerous. RUSSELL received a severe wound in the head. inflicted apparently, with a watchman's hook. The following are also reported to be wounded: [???] AUG. WALDEN in the leg, GEO. WATKINS in the throat, and an Irishman, name unknown, in the thigh.

The mob were seen no more during the night. All honor to the Police for their energetic action, and to the military for their active cooperation. Where all did so well, we cannot individualize.

Continue reading the main story
We trust this is the last we shall see of mob violence in our fair city. All such attempts must fall. They that sow the wind shall reap the whirlwind. The authorities are prepared. We have not mentioned all the force at call last night. The laws will be maintained.

Larry Purtell
USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/16/2018 5:25:31 AM
Small article on the Troy N.Y affair.


---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 217

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/16/2018 5:34:58 PM

Quote:
I believe there were draft riots in Troy and Buffalo NY. Nothing on the scale of New York City.
--Larry Purtell


Fascinating !

In the July 11, 1863 "Boston Daily Advertiser", p. 2, is a letter regarding draft evasion. The author
claims that 1,000 males that had their names published in the Boston newspaper had left for "British
provinces".

Greg
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

Scott Brown
MA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 178

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/17/2018 6:59:03 PM
Fascinating, indeed.

A good place to start on conscription, opposition and dodging...

[Read More]

If anyone has come across other good, related titles, I'm interested.

Regards,
Scott B.

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 1:50:48 AM
Any chance that there was some correlation between the rioting and the very large number of casualties suffered by NY regiments at Gettysburg ?

I sometimes reflect on the analogy between New York and North Carolina in this respect : both states took an inordinate amount of punishment in the battle ; New York losing more men than Pennsylvania and North Carolina more than Virginia. There was disaffection with the war in both states.

It would be very wrong of me to attribute the riots to Gettysburg, to the exclusion of other local factors which must have loomed large. There was a toxic demographic mix in New York City, and the Irish contingent had its own special grievances. But the impact of Gettysburg surely imparted something.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Larry Purtell
USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 6:34:40 AM

Quote:
Any chance that there was some correlation between the rioting and the very large number of casualties suffered by NY regiments at Gettysburg ?

I sometimes reflect on the analogy between New York and North Carolina in this respect : both states took an inordinate amount of punishment in the battle ; New York losing more men than Pennsylvania and North Carolina more than Virginia. There was disaffection with the war in both states.

It would be very wrong of me to attribute the riots to Gettysburg, to the exclusion of other local factors which must have loomed large. There was a toxic demographic mix in New York City, and the Irish contingent had its own special grievances. But the impact of Gettysburg surely imparted something.

Regards, Phil
--Phil andrade


Hi Phil. Publishing names of men drafted along with casualties of Gettysburg probably was one factor in the riot. Certainly poor timing. I'm sure many drafted men felt like it was their turn to pay the butchers bill.

Larry
---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 7:33:01 AM
The New York regiments accounted for 1,480 soldiers who were killed or mortally wounded at Gettysburg. That equates to twenty nine per cent of the entire Union death toll for the battle. In an uncannily similar arithmetic of battle, North Carolina regiments lost 1,560....again, almost exactly the same percentage rate of all the CSA fatal casualties at Gettysburg.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 30
E-5 Sergeant
Posts: 250

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 8:54:56 AM
Even though NY regiments took heavy losses I'm not sure how much of an effect it was on NYC. The Excelsior Brigade (70th, 71st,72nd,73rd, 74th + 120th) was from the City and it took 778 Killed/wounded/missing. I don't think the 120th was a city regiment. The 3 NY regiments of the Irish Brigade 63rd lost 23, 69NY 25, and the 88th 20. Again some upstate regiments like the 124th took heavy losses

phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 9:11:35 AM
Yes, John, point taken....I mustn't conflate NY with NYC.

I took a look through the roster of the dead in the regiments of the Excelsior, and there is more than a sprinkling of Irish names there ; but not enough to endow with a singular Irish identity.

I remember being asked to trace the provenance of a New Yorker who was killed at Gettysburg. A family descendant had enquired. I can't remember the name, but I do recollect that he was killed on Day 2 in a clash with Wilcox's Alabamians. The feature that is significant was his pre war occupation of teamster. Am I right in supposing that this alludes to waterside labour ?


Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 30
E-5 Sergeant
Posts: 250

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 11:56:43 AM
I believe a teamster in this time period would be a person would drove a wagon for a living. Most likely freight or something heavier than the usual deliveries.
The original Excelsior Brigade was recruited in NYC by Dan Sickles. A large number came from the NYC fire companies but a sizable number came from across the Hudson in NJ

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 217

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 12:19:38 PM

Quote:
The New York regiments accounted for 1,480 soldiers who were killed or mortally wounded at Gettysburg. That equates to twenty nine per cent of the entire Union death toll for the battle. In an uncannily similar arithmetic of battle, North Carolina regiments lost 1,560....again, almost exactly the same percentage rate of all the CSA fatal casualties at Gettysburg.

Regards, Phil
--phil andrade


Phil,

You make some interesting points regarding New York & North Carolina, and the impact that Gettysburg made on those states.

I believe there was some post-Gettysburg rioting in Raleigh, and that there was a belief that NC wanted out of the Confederacy about this time.

As for New York City, I imagine the growing newspaper lists of NY casualties suffered @ Gettysburg had some negative impact on the local psyche, especially among the recent arrivals from Ireland. I recall the scene from "Gangs of New York" where the Irish males getting off the ship were promised a bounty for joining the Union army. One new recruit said to the other, "Where are you going?". The other recruit said, "Some place called Tennessee!"

Boston certainly had a large Irish population. Why no riots there?

Best Regards,

Greg
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 30
E-5 Sergeant
Posts: 250

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 12:46:51 PM
Interesting article on Boston riot

http://bostoniano.info/northendspirit/north-end-boston-draft-riot-1863/

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 217

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 2:44:28 PM

Quote:
Interesting article on Boston riot

http://bostoniano.info/northendspirit/north-end-boston-draft-riot-1863/
--john hayward


WOW ! Thank you for sharing this.

If upwards of 20 men, women & children were killed, why does the Boston
civil unrest not get much publicity? I don't recall ever reading about it,
or the other non-NYC draft riots.

Best Regards,

Greg
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 30
E-5 Sergeant
Posts: 250

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 4:59:41 PM
Knew about the Portsmouth "riot" but understood that it was raining in both Boston and Portsmouth those 2 days. One writer credited the weather for keeping the riots from growing. try to find that article

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 5:22:15 PM
Baltimore, Boston and New York City...all “ edgy” cities, with a maritime culture and a penchant for turmoil.

Baltimore kicked off in 1861.

The Irish denominator is to the fore in two of them.

Is there something about the month of July ; a kind of mid-summer madness ? Bastille Day.....

The Irish themselves like to have a set to in mid July : they remember the Battle of the Boyne. They were at it again this week in Londonderry.

I suppose there were more prosaic reasons in NYC in July 1863 : resentment against black workers taking jobs ? Recently arrived immigrants tend to be acutely sensitive to their status being undermined by a succeeding wave of newcomers who might undercut them. Add in the impact of Gettysburg and the Draft and things turn nasty.

Intrigued to read that Irish women were ringleaders in Boston. In male dominated societies - and I hope I’m not being out of line if I suggest that Irish tradition is largely patriarchal - there are surprisingly strident and aggressive women.

Mistress Molly Maguire rides again !

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 30
E-5 Sergeant
Posts: 250

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 7:53:50 PM
We have to remember that not many years before this The American Party known as Know Nothings was a major political influence in America. Anti-immigrant, anti-Irish, anti-Catholic, No Irish can apply

Larry Purtell
USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/18/2018 9:03:33 PM
Here's a link to an interesting article on the riot.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-new-york-draft-riots-of-1863/2013/04/26/a1aacf52-a620-11e2-a8e2-5b98cb59187f_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2ce0fe0a4657
---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

Larry Purtell
USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/19/2018 8:48:40 AM
Another good link to covrage of the draft riot.

https://www.history.com/news/four-days-of-fire-the-new-york-city-draft-riots
---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

Larry Purtell
USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/24/2018 1:32:30 PM
This story makes me sick, but it is of interest and shows the mentality of the mob.


---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4134

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/24/2018 2:14:59 PM
Larry,

Your right an absolute commentary on the barbarity on the riot! Col. O Brian was a fool to hang around after his attack on the mob, but then, why didn't his command stay & back him up?

Regardless very sick & violent retribution to him!

Captures the Riot in it's gory detail!
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 217

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 7/24/2018 2:29:55 PM
WOW ! Such detail in that report.

I'm surprised there hasn't been a movie feature on the NYC riot
of July 1863. The "Gangs of New York" touched on it. A bit of our
history most Americans are surely ignorant.
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

Larry Purtell
USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 8/7/2018 6:48:06 AM
From the Pacific Commercial Advertiser, Honolulu Hawaii August 6, 1863.


---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4134

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 8/7/2018 9:34:52 AM
Hi Larry,

Is this reporter is suggesting that New York Regiments were ordered home to secure stability in the city after the riots?

didn't realize that?
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 30
E-5 Sergeant
Posts: 250

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 8/7/2018 9:44:04 AM
According to some reports as many as 43 regiments many from NY State were encamped in and around the City by riots end. the number seems high

Larry Purtell
USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 8/7/2018 10:00:18 AM

Quote:
Hi Larry,

Is this reporter is suggesting that New York Regiments were ordered home to secure stability in the city after the riots?

didn't realize that?
MD
--Michigan Dave


The date line on this story is July 15. I'm sure many of the returning regiments were kept on active duty as a safety precaution until tempers simmered down.
---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

Larry Purtell
USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

Re: The NY riot
Posted on: 8/7/2018 10:01:29 AM

Quote:
According to some reports as many as 43 regiments many from NY State were encamped in and around the City by riots end. the number seems high
--john hayward


It does seem high as many NY militia regiments were still in PA and Maryland during the riot.

Larry
---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

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