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The current time is: 11/12/2018 3:29:21 PM
 (1863) Battle of Gettysburg
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Larry Purtell
USA
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E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/20/2018 9:35:38 AM
From the North Carolina Argus, Wadesboro N.C. August 20,1863


---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

Phil andrade
London, UK
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Posts: 3357

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/20/2018 11:11:31 AM
On first reading, I thought that this must be about Iverson, whose brigade was so disastrously shattered on the first day of the battle.

The revelation that it alluded to another officer by the name of Polk suggests that there was a good deal of scandal rampant in North Carolina regarding the use and abuse of the state’s soldiers in the battle.

I suppose the uniquely heavy loss of life suffered by NC at Gettysburg accounts in large measure for the gossip and recrimination that followed ; but I can’t help wondering how far the society in that particular state lent itself to a toxic atmosphere of rivalries and suspicion.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Larry Purtell
USA
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E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 690

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/20/2018 1:24:03 PM
Hi Phil. The 43rd NC was in Daniels brigade, Rodes division. I'm sure Polk was aware of the huge loss of Iversons brigade and other NC units at Gettysburg. I have seen numerous derogatory newspaper articles from VA concerning the performance of NC at Gettysburg. I attribute it a VA bias against NC and nothing more.

Regards, Larry
---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

Phil andrade
London, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/20/2018 2:12:06 PM
Larry,

It’s always intrigued me that the fate of Daniel’s brigade does not get the same attention as Iverson’s.

While Iverson’s command suffered a loss of 183 killed or mortally wounded, Daniel’s brigade lost 244.

Editing : It must be said, I suppose, that Iverson's smaller command took a more sudden and catastrophic beating, with a fatal blast of enemy fire destroying it in short order. Daniel’s underwent a more steady attrition ....but it still demands some comment, that a brigade took such extreme punishment and doesn’t get the mention merited.

Regards, Phil

---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

phil andrade
London, UK
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Posts: 3357

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/21/2018 3:32:27 AM
Table of Confederate brigades with conspicuously heavy loss in killed in action or mortally wounded in the battle :

Pettigrew : 463

Davis : 357

Armistead : 289

Garnett : 259

Daniel : 244

Wright : 202

Kershaw : 201

Lane : 199

Barksdale : 198

Scales : 192

Iverson : 183

Anderson : 182

Kemper : 175

Perrin : 174

Robertson : 165

Steuart : 159

Law : 139

Wilcox : 128

Gordon : 118


Lang : 110

Jones : 105

Benning : 101

These are just those that lost one hundred or more. There were others that came close to that.

It should be mentioned that the brigade sizes varied significantly, so the table does not give us the proportional sense of the fatality. Pettigrew's command was the hardest hit in both absolute and relative terms, with 16.7% of its complement being mortally stricken. That's about one in six. Iverson's brigade lost about one in eight killed or died from wounds. Federal experience closely rivalled in many cases : the famed Iron Brigade losing one seventh of its strength killed or mortally wounded. These are, of course, only the fatalities. Bear in mind the great number left surviving with wounds, and the many who - though unscathed - endured captivity in conditions so squalid that the ultimate death toll was to be greatly increased.

Submitted as a matter of honour !


Regards, Phil


---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4134

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/21/2018 4:55:55 PM
Hi Phil,

Rightly so, submitting the casualties is certainly an act, honoring these brave soldiers whose deaths were not their fault, only troops following, orders, doing their duty! As a side light,I think in the movie Gettysburg, the great sound track captures this premise!


[Read More]

at least for me it does,

Regards,
MD


---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Phil andrade
London, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
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Posts: 3357

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/22/2018 3:21:36 AM
Larry,

Some of the phraseology is exquisite !

You can almost feel the censure of a largely rural , very parochial society. A lot of gossip, tittle tattle, with everyone knowing everyone else’s business.....

The slimy trail of their foul slander and filthy malice .

The parlor warriors at home

...the wrath and black hearted malice of my slanderers ....devising tricks to keep out of service

This attests the kind of claustrophobic burden of expectation that fell on those men from these communities, where rumour amplified their deeds or misdeeds.

That such people were exposed to the ordeal of a large scale and very intense war, with battles as terrible as Gettysburg, is a very important feature of the conflict.

A war in which millions of soldiers were mobilised, but which was still defined by the vices and virtues of parochial mid nineteenth century Americans.

Editing : Anxious not to be seen as disrespectful of that society....the ties of kinship and local pride and patriotism imparted to those men an immense strength that enabled them to withstand those awful casualty rates, so apparent in the table I posted earlier. Very similar motivation was extant in the British soldiers who, exactly fifty three years later, went to their deaths in tens of thousands when the Battle of the Somme started. They were the legendary “ Pals Battalions”, men raised from local communities and joined by ties that seem almost mystical today. Surely, much the same might be said of the men of, say, the 26th North Carolina regiment, which lost twenty per cent of all its men killed or died of wounds....and, again, we must not forget their northern counterparts , especially in the regiment that fought against them : the 24th Michigan, which also lost one fifth of its entire complement as battle fatalities. What Larry’s piece tells us, though, is the converse side of that heroic tradition ; when local sentiment turned sour, the recipient of bad repute had to contend with a toxic legacy. As if the poor officer did not have enough to deal with already , he was afflicted by an onslaught on his reputation that distracted and undermined in the most pernicious way.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
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E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 2379

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/24/2018 2:16:58 PM
A fascinating subject.

Thanks oncec again Larry.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
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E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 843

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/25/2018 12:45:04 AM
Phil,

Maybe the number along with the percentage of the brigade would be a better comparison.

Also a short history of Daniel and his Brigade,

http://www.npshistory.com/series/symposia/gettysburg_seminars/10/essay7.pdf
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/25/2018 2:35:28 AM
John,

Yes, I’ll take a look at percentages.

Incidentally, if memory serves me, Daniel himself came to grief in the Overland Campaign : I think it might have been at Spotsylvania where he was mortally wounded.

The story goes that he was devoted to his black servant, and in his death agonies he was expressing anxiety over the future welfare of his slave.

I have two estimates of the strength of Daniel’s brigade at Gettysburg : 2,162 according to Busey and Martin ( 1986 ) and 2,294 according to Busey’s later research ( 2017 ). In addition to the 244 killed and died of wounds, 19 unwounded prisoners were to die in yankee captivity, about one in four of those who were captured unwounded.

Of the 972 casualties suffered by the brigade in the battle, only 79 were unwounded POWs.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 843

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/25/2018 2:17:32 PM
Phil,


I said that remembering that the brigade was one of the larger in the army because it hadn't seen much combat and was rather new to the army.

There is a story out there of 4 Confederate officers who's servents, 2 slaves and 2 free, followed them into captivity and were held in the same POW Camp in the North. With winter coming the officers asked the Union commander if the could be allowed to go home because they weren't prepared for a Northern winter and weren't soldiers, The answer was if they took the oath which all 4 declined to do.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/25/2018 4:21:54 PM
John,

This man Junius Daniel stands as an exemplar of the more attractive aspects of the southern slave holding class of officers.

He was brave to a fault, and clearly determined to look after his subordinates , be they black or white.

A matter of honour, indeed .

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 843

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/25/2018 9:56:16 PM
Phil,

And yet to enforce discipline they could order and carry out whippings and brandings and even executions on those men under their command. Honour was a tricky definition especially while looking through the filters of our society.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/26/2018 2:54:46 AM
John,

Point taken....but I wonder how far a leader of Daniel’s calibre needed to enforce discipline.

Did his own example and conduct inspire it ?

This is an interesting facet of leadership : the ability to resort to consent rather than coercion .

Maybe I’m getting a bit carried away here, and putting a romantic gloss on something that was essentially harsh and ugly .....but I would like to find out more about Daniel.

Regards , Phil





---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 843

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/27/2018 2:35:14 PM
Phil,

I think you will agree that Lee is the poster boy of "own example and conduct to inspire" yet his name is on orders for the coercion. I'm not sure its possible to get all men to face the horrors of wars at all times without the coercion and I'm pretty sure that isn't a bad thing.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/28/2018 3:43:10 AM
John,

You’re right, of course.

Coercion has to be there, even if it exists as a threat rather than has to be enforced.

The other thing you mentioned which must have been an important factor in the way that Daniel’s brigade behaved at Gettysburg is the fact that it had hardly been seriously engaged in battle, and was correspondingly large and, perhaps, more keen to fight than those who had been knocked about and “seen the elephant”.

It’s always a seductive feature of military history - which, after all, deals with the grim side of human nature - to encounter the profoundly attractive aspects of character, and see how they can play out in leadership on the battlefield. Daniel seemed to have those in abundance, as did Pat Cleburne.

Daniel was born to privilege , unlike Cleburne.....I wonder how far the status of birth made people more susceptible to “ matters of honour “.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 843

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/28/2018 4:45:32 PM
Phil,

I look at the ordered suicide of Franklin and Cold Harbor and doubt very much if accident of birth has much to do about true honour because none of them turned and ran and they all knew what was coming.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/29/2018 5:34:01 AM
John,

There’s an account I remember reading, a memoir by a southern woman who did a tour of duty in a confederate military hospital , and her comment intrigued me.

I don’t remember who she was, or what she said exactly, but it was something like those born to the purple - the officers - conducted themselves stoically and showed more fortitude in suffering than the less exalted soldiery....

I had not imagined that such precepts were so evident in the democratic society of nineteenth century America....I’d thought of the enlisted men of both armies in the Civil War as rugged individualists who were every bit as determined to uphold codes of honour as the officers who led them, and who were, in some cases, elected to their rank by them.

A recent statistical survey by Professor Glatthaar into the soldiers of the AoNV indicates that southern officers were nearly two and a half times as likely to be killed in battle as the enlisted men ; my own research reveals nothing of the sort. Glatthaar’s analysis is based on extrapolating from a sample of six hundred soldiers from a total of 200,000 - 225,000 who served in that army at one time or another.

If you were to venture an assessment, what would be the minimum size of the sample that you would deem sufficient as a basis for extrapolation ?

Glatthaar uses a sample of 0.3%.

To my mind, that is absurdly small .

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 843

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/29/2018 10:50:09 AM
Phil,

I might make it smaller and look only at the Brigade and Regimental commanders and find out how many of them were killed.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/30/2018 4:47:38 AM
John,

What is revealing - and pertinent to this thread - is the comparison between the ratios. How high was the proportion of officers killed compared with that of the enlisted men ?

And, by extension , the fate of the NCOs could be cited as an indicator.

Did the society of the South - and I’m sure there were regional variances therein - accommodate or encourage devolution of command on the battlefield ?

Was it so hierarchical and stratified that it produced an excessive reliance on what was regarded as an aristocratic elite : those who were - as I alluded to - ‘born to the purple “ ?

The evidence I find from Gettysburg suggests that the southern private was hardly less committed to battle than the officer : the disparity in their combat fatality rates being much lower than we might suspect.

The impression I get is that the AoNV - and surely the same goes for the AoT - displayed reflexive combat skill that can only flourish when enlisted men fight as “ stakeholders”.

As to what those men perceived as their “ stake” , that’s something that I find of enduring fascination and challenging to understand.

Regards, Phil

---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4134

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/30/2018 9:19:56 AM
Hi Phil,

Interesting perspective on confederate officers from the aristocratic elite, & how committed to battle they were? It seems to be quite a variance here, in that in many of those officers, there was a sense of honor and chivalry, and they preformed admirably & brave. While with others using loop holes to avoid the conflict and remain at the plantation, running it, was more their concern!? ( The old rich mans war poor mans fight group?) It would be fascinating to see the statistics on what percentage of the "Planter Elite" fought in the war? (also how many brought slaves to tend to their needs while with the army, it does sound rather privileged?) I'm sure if as a rich plantation owner, if you didn't join the Confederate army, & his fellow owners of plantations did, his honor could be questioned?? I really enjoy visiting Antebellum Plantations, when I'm in the South, hearing about their perspectives, & life styles!?

Anyway is there any statistics on how many fought,
& how many brought an entourage with them?
BTW Great thread,
MD

It's also interesting how important honor was in this society, so much so that if someone questioned yours a duel could be in the offering!?

Also I haven't heard of to many of these Planter Elite fighting for the Confederacy?

[Read More]
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/30/2018 10:21:10 AM
Hi Dave,

Surely such statistics exist.

I would like to try and find some answers to your question.

I reckon the richest could duck just as well - and probably better - than the poorest.

In British society , the casualties of the war of 1914-18 were most apparent in the aristocratic families, who took disproportionately heavy losses.

One might have assumed that the same held true of the slaveocracy 1861-65.....do I sense a “ but” ?

One of the richest men to be killed in battle in the war was General Wadsworth, and he fought for the North.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 843

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/30/2018 12:30:38 PM
Phil,

The country went to war based on the militia system and the militia system was based on the formation of local companies or batteries. In the more populated areas multiple companies would form basically in a club like manner. Even in the country settings you might get two separate companies forming based on economics if the population could sustain it. What I'm trying to say is that North or South you did have entire units in which the entire rank and file were member of the economic elite. There is a story of a artillery battery in the ANVA that went to war with a baggage train longer than a corps hdq because each member had a formal 8 piece dinning set with him and at least two servants and in the summer of 1964 the survivers were still there cracking jokes over how they went to war and what their dinner was now. You had the same in the North with the "Harvard Regiment" coming to mind because it was built up from a base of 4 or 5 companies of Harvard grads and students.



---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 843

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/30/2018 12:48:19 PM
Hey Dave what is you definition of planter elite? Is it the head of house or the entire family?
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3357

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/30/2018 3:00:07 PM

Quote:
Phil,

The country went to war based on the militia system and the militia system was based on the formation of local companies or batteries. In the more populated areas multiple companies would form basically in a club like manner. Even in the country settings you might get two separate companies forming based on economics if the population could sustain it. What I'm trying to say is that North or South you did have entire units in which the entire rank and file were member of the economic elite. There is a story of a artillery battery in the ANVA that went to war with a baggage train longer than a corps hdq because each member had a formal 8 piece dinning set with him and at least two servants and in the summer of 1964 the survivers were still there cracking jokes over how they went to war and what their dinner was now. You had the same in the North with the "Harvard Regiment" coming to mind because it was built up from a base of 4 or 5 companies of Harvard grads and students.



--John R. Price


John,

That’s interesting and something of a revelation to me. Much the same could be said of some of the “ Pals Battalions “ that comprised the volunteer British army that went to its death in 1916. The same syndrome : a Public School’s’ battalion in which the privates went to war with servants carrying their baggage. It seems so incongruous : in wars which swept societies away, there were cohorts that entered the fight determined to keep all their points of reference intact.

This idea of a common social identity probably enhanced unit loyalty and might well have been beneficial in some circumstances ....but I imagine that old army professionals must have found it exasperating. Lee, I believe, was profoundly irritated by some manifestations of this culture, although he did so much to perpetuate it.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4134

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/30/2018 6:12:31 PM

Quote:
Hey Dave what is you definition of planter elite? Is it the head of house or the entire family?
--John R. Price


Hi John,

I am referring to the entire male family members who owned the plantation, meaning father and sons, and direct family members holding a privaleged place obviously wealthy, privaledged slaveocracy!

Regards,
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 843

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/30/2018 7:12:51 PM
Dave,

Have you ever heard of Jefferson Davis and his nephew, Wade Hampton, Bedford Forrest and his Brothers, Robert E Lee and his sons and nephew, Braxton Bragg, Bishop Polk and his nephew, John Pemberton, Howell Cobb, States Rights Gist, Richard Taylor, Johnson Pettigrew and on and on and on. Have you heard how Hardee had his only son with him on his staff throughout the war so as to keep him out of the fighting but at Bentonville this 17 year old boy joined the cavalry detachment in literally the last charge of the Army of Tenn and was KIA? You do understand that Lee's Grandfather was "King Carter" and his wife's descended from Martha Washington. You going to associate Washington with the same venomous slavocracy? Why aren't you asking the same question for the industrial elite of the North?

EDIT Willie Hardee was at school in Georgia until late 63 early 64 when he ran away and tried to join Terry's Texas Ranger's/8th Texas Cavalry. The commander turned him over to his father who made him a Lt on his staff but Willie kept after his father to let him jpin a fighting unit even after have a horse shot out from under him at the battle of Atlanta while delivering a order. His father relented and allowed him to join a artillery battery but Willie kept trying to get sent to the Ranger's. The elder Hardee relented a few daus before the final charge where Willie was cut down at the age of 16.(sorry I was wrong above my memory isn't as good)
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 843

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 8/30/2018 7:28:04 PM
Phil,

I think Lee understood the time of the "code" was ending and holding on to it was only harmful to the cause. The militia no because that was the system they, the regulars, all knew they would have to work with and had worked with in Mexico. I think your thinking of the election of officers but that didn't last long.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4134

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 9/13/2018 12:39:40 PM

Quote:
Hi Dave,

Surely such statistics exist.

I would like to try and find some answers to your question.

I reckon the richest could duck just as well - and probably better - than the poorest.

In British society , the casualties of the war of 1914-18 were most apparent in the aristocratic families, who took disproportionately heavy losses.

One might have assumed that the same held true of the slaveocracy 1861-65.....do I sense a “ but” ?

One of the richest men to be killed in battle in the war was General Wadsworth, and he fought for the North.

Regards, Phil
--Phil andrade





Hi John,

My use of the term [1 time, ever} was in response to Phil using it, Until then I had never even heard the term "Slaveocracy!

still dislike the term,

MD


BTW are you ever wrong!?
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 843

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 9/13/2018 10:09:51 PM
Hey Dave your getting as sensitive as certain Canadians and maybe as forgetful. You've poked your head in on a few discussions with 74PA and he uses the term in most posts he writes and you are usually agreeing with his points. So maybe you haven't used it before but you sure have seen it.


Yes I am wrong often and I admit when I am. Is covering being wrong with another "falsehood" actually admitting you were wrong?
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4134

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 9/14/2018 7:46:45 AM
John,

It's to bad we are not back in the time period of the 1800's, men were gentlemen back then, they didn't try to find & shout out faults that each other might make, they were polite. In the south especially if you were making a mistake, they would say, "Bless his heart"! Sometimes you come across as hostile. If you can't be cordial, I will try to stay out of any discussions you are involved in. To be honest I am considering retiring from involvement with this site, I notice a fair amount of others have, It should be a positive experience talking history, not rudeness!

You needn't reply,

MD

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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 843

Re: A matter of honor.
Posted on: 9/14/2018 8:53:56 PM
Dave wouldn't that be either say "Bless his heart" or send representatives to set the time and place for a duel?

So let me see if I've got this right its less cordial and more rude to point out somebody who to put it mildly is "speaking with forked tongue" than it is for that person to "speak with forked tongue?"



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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


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