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The current time is: 12/10/2018 3:15:01 PM
 (1863) Battle of Gettysburg
AuthorMessage
Larry Purtell
USA
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E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 693

Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/18/2018 8:36:41 AM
From the Abingdon Virginian. Abingdon VA. Sept 18, 1863.


---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

Phil andrade
London, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3472

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/18/2018 12:03:05 PM
As always, Larry, you furnish us with the most valuable source material.

This shows us how people thought and felt at the time : there’s no better service that could be rendered to the study of history than this.

With my abiding interest in the casualty statistics, such vignettes are invaluable, because , as you say, thy put a face on the numbers and remind us of the humanity.

Regarding Martin Frayley, I couldn’t help but notice that the date of death is stated as 2d July initially, but is then cited as the 3rd. I note from my own investigation - using Busey - that his surname was Fraly, without the E. The 50th Virginia was in Edward Johnson’s division of the Second Corps, and his death on 2 July indicates that he met his fate in the fight for Culp’s Hill that evening .

When a man was fatally stricken , but died one and a half hours later, would he be posted as killed or died from wounds ?

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4288

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/18/2018 2:40:12 PM
Thanks for posting Larry,

At least these 3 Virginia Men got to see & fight with Robert E Lee, & Stonewall Jackson before passing on! Also coming from the Albingdon Area of Upland Virginia, they probably didn't even own slaves? Here are some pics of the area from which they came! {putting a place on the face on the numbers!?)

[Read More]

beautiful area of Virginia near the North Carolina border, go close to it every winter when we head south!

I note one of the 3 died from sickness, how appropriate?

Regards,
Dave
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 852

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/18/2018 3:45:05 PM
Dave in 1860 slaves were about 15% of the population of Washington County VA and the population in 1860 was 16,892 with 2,547 slaves. Without doubt towards the lower end percentage wise but still not insignificant.

Now when Larry puts up a Union death list are you going to chime in that at least some of them weren't abolitionists? It wasn't all about slavery on either side.

Oh and the 48th VA was never in the Stonewall Brigade or attached to it the reporter of family member who wrote this seems to be confusing brigade and division. The 48th VA was in Jones' Brigade which was part of Jackson's Division then being commander by Bushrod Johnson.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3472

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/19/2018 3:22:53 AM
John,

It wasn’t all about slavery on either side.

If it had been about slavery, the thing would have been a damned sight easier. Rather like emancipating the serfs in Tsarist Russia, which occurred at almost exactly the same time.

This was more than a question of slavery : it was a question of the relationship between black and white people. Those at the poorer end of white society in the South also had a stake in slavery, because it endowed them with something that they cherished and were determined to retain : their sense of racial supremacy.

Forgive me for reiterating this. It’s stating the bleeding obvious. The obvious has a tendency to be overlooked.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

BWilson

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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4775

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/19/2018 5:10:49 AM

Quote:
This was more than a question of slavery : it was a question of the relationship between black and white people. Those at the poorer end of white society in the South also had a stake in slavery, because it endowed them with something that they cherished and were determined to retain : their sense of racial supremacy.


 Hmm, that was probably an aspect for at least some of the CSA soldiers, but only one aspect. The war, overall, was about more than slavery; the question of the allocation of authority between the state and federal governments comes immediately to mind. As well, there is the matter that doubtlessly many northern soldiers felt themselves superior to blacks by virtue of their race, yet fought in "union blue" out of loyalty to their state or the federal government, among the many motivations for those who voluntarily entered into military service.

 In the late 1980s, I was shocked to note the degree of racial division still apparent in Detroit and Cincinnati, both cities well north of the Mason-Dixon Line ... especially after having spent years in the American south, where the people were certainly not racially blind yet had better adapted to the mixing of the races and enjoyed a more functional local society as a result.

Cheers,

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Phil andrade
London, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3472

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/19/2018 5:39:35 AM
Yes, Bill, point taken.

There was a very strong contingent of ” negrophobes” in the Federal armies, especially from mid western folks who saw black labour as a threat to their economic welfare. And who could forget the Irish who turned against the black people in the Draft Riots in New York City ?

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 852

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/19/2018 9:29:41 AM
Phil,

With respect the entire country was racist. If it was only a "strong contingent" why then does Lincoln in multiple campaign speeches state "free but never equal." Also with respect "empire" and "colonialism" has a strong contingent of racism and in 1860 which empire did the sun not set on. In 1860 racism by our definition was the norm.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3472

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/19/2018 10:58:12 AM
John,

The British people freed their slaves thirty years earlier . For them, it was easy....they were compensated , and, to make the cup run over, they didn’t have to live with the freed blacks : they were all thousands of miles away in the West Indies.

One of the most remarkable features about the British emancipation project was the widespread compensation. Many British folks of “ humble” social status discovered that they owned human property in Jamaica : skilled labouring men and their wives discovered that they owned a slave somewhere in the West Indies.

It took several generations before the descendants of those liberated slaves turned up on British soil, and their welcome was none too warm.

You’re right, racism was the norm.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3472

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/19/2018 11:33:33 AM
Reverting to the fate of the 50th Virginia at Gettysburg, I see from Busey that it suffered 96 casualties at Gettysburg. Of these, 13 were killed , and 5 died from wounds. Of those five who were mortally wounded, three died of their wounds after they had been captured. My guess is that Martin Fraly was counted as killed, rather than died of wounds. Another 48 were left surviving with wounds, of whom 22 were prisoners. The regiment yielded thirty unwounded prisoners to the enemy, and, significantly, nine of these perished in captivity. That's a thirty per cent death rate. No officers were killed or died from wounds.

On Saturday I am going to attend a lecture on the 26th North Carolina at Gettysburg. This will be held in Central London. I intend to prime up on info from my Busey volumes and pitch some challenging questions !

Editing : The speaker will be Eric Lindblade.


Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4775

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/19/2018 12:00:24 PM
Phil,

 Any idea of the strength of the 50th Virginia as it entered battle at Gettysburg?

Cheers,

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3472

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/19/2018 12:41:53 PM
Hi Bill,

According to Busey and Martin, 240 officers and men. The later research of John Busey tends to increase these numbers, so I might check his most recent research.

Forty per cent casualties, more or less : significant, but hardly excessive by the standards of that battle.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4775

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/19/2018 12:43:15 PM
Thanks Phil,

 That gave me the context I sought.

Cheers,

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3472

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/19/2018 1:04:11 PM
Delighted to help, Bill.

And here's some more information from John and Travis Busey :

Martin Fraly was in Company H, known as The Wise Yankee Catchers .

He was born in Kentucky, but was residing in Wise County in 1860. He was a farmer, aged 33 when he was killed. His wife, Mary, was 31 , and they had four children, 10 year old George, , 8 year old Anderson, 6 year old John and 2 year old Mary. Also residing with the family was 13 year old Melipa Jones. Who she was, and what her relationship was to the family, is not mentioned. I wonder if she was a slave.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3472

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/19/2018 1:14:02 PM
Another one : poor David Jessee was in Co K, 48th Va, The Russell Guards .


Busey records him as mortally wounded, shot through the abdomen and abandoned on the field.


This was recorded by the Abingdon Virginian newspaper on 24 July 1863.

There were no further details as to his fate.

Regards, Phil





---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 852

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/19/2018 5:06:36 PM
Phil,

Don't want to be seen as stepping on toes here but what is the difference between the plantation elite and the colonial elite in Hong Kong, Singapore, Bombay or the West Indies? With respect I think it more accurate to say the British freed one category of their slaves 30 years earlier.


As shareholders in one of the colonial companies right? A person would invest in a company like the Hudson's Bay Company and that company would use slaves for labor. That's what your talking about right?
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3472

Re: Putting a face on the numbers
Posted on: 9/20/2018 1:57:57 AM
John,

What I’ve been driving at here is the question of the relationship between races rather than the issue of free versus slave labour.

British people were able to impose racial codes and coercion without worrying about these coming into their own parlours.

It was all done at a distance .

As to how far they overlooked the conditions of their own native labouring classes.....well, that’s something else.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

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