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 (1939-1945) WWII Battles
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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/19/2018 9:16:57 AM
The turning point of the battle came with a huge Soviet counteroffensive, code-named Operation Uranus (November 19–23), which had been planned by Generals Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov, Aleksandr Mikhailovich Vasilevsky, and Nikolay Nikolayevich Voronov.

It was launched in two spearheads, some 50 miles (80 km) north and south of the German salient whose tip was at Stalingrad. The counteroffensive utterly surprised the Germans, who thought the Soviets incapable of mounting such an attack.

The operation was a “deep penetration” maneuver, attacking not the main German force at the forefront of the battle for Stalingrad—the 250,000 remaining men of the Sixth Army and Fourth Panzer Army, both formidable foes—but instead hitting the weaker flanks.

Those flanks were vulnerably exposed on the open steppes surrounding the city and were weakly defended by undermanned, undersupplied, overstretched, and undermotivated Romanian, Hungarian, and Italian troops.

All of this was in the wake of a tremendous struggle for months within the city.Why was this so and how did it come about????


[Read More]

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4288

Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/19/2018 11:09:22 AM
Hi Jim,

Stalingrad, where Russian history teaches us that they won WWII!?

What say you?
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 7260
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/19/2018 11:41:46 AM
Hi Dave

Battle of Stalingrad, (July 17, 1942–February 2, 1943), successful Soviet defense of the city of Stalingrad (now Volgograd), Russia, U.S.S.R., during World War II.

Russians consider it to be one of the greatest battles of their Great Patriotic War, and most historians consider it to be the greatest battle of the entire conflict.

It stopped the German advance into the Soviet Union and marked the turning of the tide of war in favour of the Allies.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/20/2018 12:01:29 PM
On July 28 Stalin issued Order No. 227, decreeing that the defenders at Stalingrad would take “Not One Step Back.”

He also refused the evacuation of any civilians, stating that the army would fight harder knowing that they were defending residents of the city.

For his part, Hitler continued to directly intervene at the operational level, and in August he ordered Hoth to turn around and head toward Stalingrad from the south.

By the end of August, the Fourth Army’s northeastward advance against the city was converging with the eastward advance of the Sixth Army, under Gen. Friedrich Paulus, with 330,000 of the German army’s finest troops.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
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Posts: 3472

Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/20/2018 3:16:57 PM


Didn’t Hitler make a promise, that there would be No Verdun on the Volga ?

There wasn’t .

Verdun had been a failure. Stalingrad was a catastrophe.


Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/21/2018 3:49:41 AM
I am of the opinion that Stalingrad was another Verdun;but on an immense scale;The Germans had got into the city in June 1942.

It was only after the most horrific fighting- were forced to retire (Oct. 1942) into a what would become a snow filled wasteland== which ultimately doomed von Paulus's 6th Army.

Regards

Jim
---------------
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Lightning
Glasgow, UK
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Posts: 559

Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/21/2018 5:42:51 AM
Ah, but as with Verdun, the symbolic victory was at stake. We know that Soviet confidence was low at the start of the battle; Allied efforts elsewhere were largely defensive and the Axis powers were at their zenith. A quick and decisive German victory at Stalingrad over the bulk of the Soviet armour may well have ended the war on the German eastern front. It's hard to see how the Germans could have missed the chance to take their opportunity. IMO, the strategy was as sound in 1942 as it had been in 1916.

Regards,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/21/2018 5:48:33 AM
Hi Colin--perhaps you missed this post

The turning point of the battle came with a huge Soviet counteroffensive, code-named Operation Uranus (November 19–23), which had been planned by Generals Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov, Aleksandr Mikhailovich Vasilevsky, and Nikolay Nikolayevich Voronov.

It was launched in two spearheads, some 50 miles (80 km) north and south of the German salient whose tip was at Stalingrad. The counteroffensive utterly surprised the Germans, who thought the Soviets incapable of mounting such an attack.

The operation was a “deep penetration” maneuver, attacking not the main German force at the forefront of the battle for Stalingrad—the 250,000 remaining men of the Sixth Army and Fourth Panzer Army, both formidable foes—but instead hitting the weaker flanks.

Those flanks were vulnerably exposed on the open steppes surrounding the city and were weakly defended by undermanned, undersupplied, overstretched, and undermotivated Romanian, Hungarian, and Italian troops.


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
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Posts: 559

Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/21/2018 7:26:17 AM
Indeed, my bad. Thanks Jim.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/21/2018 11:52:56 AM
By November 23 the two prongs of the Uranus attack had linked up at Kalach, about 60 miles (100 km) west of Stalingrad; the encirclement of the two German armies in Stalingrad was complete.

The German high command urged Hitler to allow Paulus and his forces to break out of the encirclement and rejoin the main German forces west of the city.

Hitler would not contemplate a retreat from the Volga River and ordered Paulus to “stand and fight.”

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 30
E-5 Sergeant
Posts: 357

Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/21/2018 9:10:42 PM
any thoughts that by year's end 1942, neither Germany or Japan had any chance to win the war?

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/22/2018 3:33:37 AM
John--On August 23, 1942 German troops began pushing in
to the city. ... The remainder of the German armies surrendered on February 2, 1943, bringing an end to the Battle of Stalingrad.

This Allied victory marked an important turning point in the war, shifting the tide in favour of the Allies.The Russian onslaught was relentless.Theritish 8th Army were houding the Germans out of North Africa and by 1943 were joined by the US

Midway like Stalingrad was a decisive turning point,Japan's offensive power was blunted. Early on the morning of June 5, with the battle lost, the Japanese cancelled the Midway operation and the initiative in the Pacific was in the balance.

Although losing four carriers, Parshall and Tully note losses at Midway did not radically degrade the fighting capabilities of Japanese naval aviation as a whole.The US too were relentless 1043/55

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4288

Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/22/2018 8:50:27 AM
Jim,

As you know today Nov 22nd the Germans were trapped & encircled by the Soviets, & with the Russian Winter coming on it is the beginning of the end for them!? What say you?

[Read More]

How much help was the US Lend Lease Act, in supplying the Soviets in this??

Good thread,
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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Posts: 8288

Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/22/2018 9:43:57 AM

Quote:
How much help was the US Lend Lease Act, in supplying the Soviets in this??


The Battle of Stalingrad ended early in February of 1943.

I believe that the quantities of goods coming into the USSR really ramped up after the battle was over.

Something like 25% of the goods delivered under L-L, were delivered in 1943.

Didn't L-L have more of an influence on the battles farther to the south near the Caucasus? Perhaps the Persian Corridor was the preferred delivery route at the time.

Note as well that Britain was also delivering military aid to the USSR. So was little Canada under its Mutual Aid programme.

That does not diminish the overwhelming effect of L-L but should be noted.

Stalin said after the war that Lend-Lease ensured that the victory of the USSR came a little earlier than it would have. I think that that would have to do as gratitude.

But it begs question then. Would the USSR have won without Lend Lease and British Aid?

Cheers,

George

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/22/2018 10:15:42 AM
Memorandum for the President's Special Assistant Harry Hopkins, Washington, D.C., August 10, 1943:


Quote:
In War II Russia occupies a dominant position and is the decisive factor looking toward the defeat of the Axis in Europe. While in Sicily the forces of Great Britain and the United States are being opposed by 2 German divisions, the Russian front is receiving attention of approximately 200 German divisions.

Whenever the Allies open a second front on the Continent, it will be decidedly a secondary front to that of Russia; theirs will continue to be the main effort. Without Russia in the war, the Axis cannot be defeated in Europe, and the position of the United Nations becomes precarious. Similarly,
Russia’s post-war position in Europe will be a dominant one. With Germany crushed, there is no power in Europe to oppose her tremendous military forces.


However the recovery of Russia's war material manufacturing was operating at stretched capacity making weapons such as the T34 tank,the Stormovik aircraft,and millions of small arms including small arms ans artillery.Where LL came into this situation is difficult to judge -probably in the supply of raw materials.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

richto90

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E-6 Staff Sergeant
Posts: 463

Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/22/2018 12:26:57 PM

Quote:
The Battle of Stalingrad ended early in February of 1943.

I believe that the quantities of goods coming into the USSR really ramped up after the battle was over.

Something like 25% of the goods delivered under L-L, were delivered in 1943.


17.6% of all U.S. Lend-Lease shipped was sent June 1941-January 1943.


Quote:
Didn't L-L have more of an influence on the battles farther to the south near the Caucasus? Perhaps the Persian Corridor was the preferred delivery route at the time.


About 32.5% of all the goods shipped as U.S. Lend-Lease June 1941-January 1943 was via the Persian Corridor.


Quote:
Note as well that Britain was also delivering military aid to the USSR. So was little Canada under its Mutual Aid programme.

That does not diminish the overwhelming effect of L-L but should be noted.


Lend-Lease tank shipments from the U.S., Canada, and U.K. in this period were a significant part of the total Soviet tank park produced. British and Canadian tanks received totaled 2,050 during 1941-1942, while 1,825 American tanks were received (of 3,200 shipped to 1 January 1942), a total of 3,875. During the same period, Soviet industry produced 25,808 tanks, so the Lend-Lease contribution was 13.1% of the total, hardly insignificant.


Quote:
Stalin said after the war that Lend-Lease ensured that the victory of the USSR came a little earlier than it would have. I think that that would have to do as gratitude.

But it begs question then. Would the USSR have won without Lend Lease and British Aid?


Doubtful. Much more significant was the delivery of propellants, explosives, and precursor chemicals, especially toluene. Much of the Soviet chemical industry prewar was located in the Donets basin and unlike much other Soviet industry it was not effectively evacuated. During wartime the Soviet chemical industry produced about 200,000 tons of toluene, while Lend-Lease imports totaled between 100,000 and 110,000 tons. Soviet production of TNT and other military explosives totaled 550,000 tons, while propellant production totaled 399,800 tons. Lend-Lease and British Aid imported 105,300 tons of explosives and 163,800 tons of propellants.

Without those imports, Soviet firepower would have been significantly affected. Reduce propellant production by about one-quarter and the total propellant available would have been about 53% of its historical levels; reduce explosives production by about one-third and explosives available would be halved as well. That means half the historical bang-bang and boom-boom.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/22/2018 1:07:28 PM
Many thanks Rich for your interest and undoubtedly well informed reply
I said "raw materials",you however were more informed and said "toluene and propellants"in huge quantities.

Soviet production of tanks somewhat dwarfed the imported 1941/42 vintage tanks British and American tanks eg.Crusader and Grant-which IMHO- were inferior to the Soviet made T34.

However apart from materiel- the Soviets had a tremendous will to win from the very top down to the foot soldiers; who were admittedly driven on by thousands of "political officers".

Regards

Jim
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richto90

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Posts: 463

Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/22/2018 7:28:21 PM

Quote:
Many thanks Rich for your interest and undoubtedly well informed reply


You are most welcome.


Quote:
I said "raw materials",you however were more informed and said "toluene and propellants"in huge quantities.


Well, I was replying directly to George and only indirectly to you. Explosives, propellants, toluene, and other precursor chemicals were absolutely vital to the Soviets and were probably the critical "raw material". Another critical raw material was aluminum. The centralized nature of Soviet production meant that when the Dnepropetrovsk refinery was evacuated (it produced 150 tons of aluminum per day), leaving just two smaller smelting plants operating, recycling aluminum. Imported aluminum became critical and during the war a total of roughly 301,000 tons were imported, compared to Soviet domestic production of 350,900 tons. Another critical non-ferrous metal was copper, the Soviets produced 534,000 tons and imported 404,000. Other, somewhat less important items were substantial quantities of tetraethyl lead and aviation spirit, 740,000 tons of POL were shipped just to 1 January 1944.


Quote:
Soviet production of tanks somewhat dwarfed the imported 1941/42 vintage tanks British and American tanks eg.Crusader and Grant-which IMHO- were inferior to the Soviet made T34.


Not necessarily. Evacuation of industry severely limited T34 production, just 1,886 were produced in the second half of 1941, 4,414 in the first half of 1942, and 8,247 in the second half of 1942. The rest were either unreliable and over-rated KV tanks (930, 1663, 890) or barely useful light tanks (2,051, 5,100, 4,275). That made the arrival of British and American designs with highly useful 37mm, 2pdr, and 75mm guns on reliable, well-armored hulls very desirable...that they were technically "inferior" to the T34 was moot, they were much better than the most numerous types in Soviet production well into 1943...when large numbers of Medium Tanks M4 were shipped and greatly appreciated.

BTW, no Crusaders or other British Cruiser Tanks were shipped - the Soviets rejected them all after examining them n Britain. The Soviets recorded receiving 918 Matilda, 3,332 Valentine (mostly from Canada), and 263 Churchill I Tanks, and 20 Tetrarch Light Tanks.

Also BTW, the number of Lend-Lease and British Aid aircraft dwarfed the number of tanks supplied and were critical to the Red Air Force. They received 865 medium and 3,066 light bombers, and 6,696 fighters, from the U.S. alone. The British sent another 7,000+, making up about 30% of total Soviet aircraft production.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/23/2018 4:55:55 AM
Thank Rich--points taken.However I have to concede that the large and varied number of aircraft from US and GB eg Hurricane,Tomahawk,boston and blerngeim Mk 4 and 5 that were shipped in 19841/42 were superior to what the Russians were equipped with in 1941/42 eg. LAG-1 Mig-1 and various early Lavochkiin,etc.

Russians were quick to copy certain Allied aircraft features in their aircraft from early 1943 eg. the Stormovic-tough and reliable.

British aircraft sent to Russia was 7000 or 30% of total Russian aircraft production at 16000+.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

richto90

top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant
Posts: 463

Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/23/2018 9:09:50 AM

Quote:
British aircraft sent to Russia was 7000 or 30% of total Russian aircraft production at 16000+.


Actually, I miscalculated, the Soviets completed some 51,000 fighters, 37,000 ground attack, and 16,000 bombers during the war, so Lend-Lease and British Aid was about 15.5% of the Soviet total, which is still very significant.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 7260
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/23/2018 10:37:00 AM
Gosh!! those Russian numbers are something else Rich-over 100,000 aircraft made in Russia--I would expect that the entire populace did some sort of war work.

Returning to the Battle for Stalingrad. The 6th Army's flanks were protected by Romanian troops, who were quickly routed by the one Russian pincer, and on 23 November, the pincers met at Kalach-na-Donu, thereby encircling General von Paulus's 6th Army.

A relief attempt was launched on 12 December, codenamed Operation Winter Storm, but this failed miserably in the Russian winter.

The army surrendered between 31 January and 2 February 1943.

German casualties are 147,200 killed and wounded and over 91,000 captured, the latter including 24 generals and 2,500 officers of lesser rank.

Only 5,000 out of 91,000 would return to Germany after the war.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

richto90

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Posts: 463

Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/23/2018 8:04:52 PM

Quote:
Gosh!! those Russian numbers are something else Rich-over 100,000 aircraft made in Russia--I would expect that the entire populace did some sort of war work.


:) Why are they something else? The British bashed together some 14,888 heavy bombers, 12,126 medium bombers, 3,156 light bombers, and 43,851 fighters in the same time frame, 74,021 aircraft (not including naval types), while the U.S. managed 34,740 heavy bombers, 6,925 patrol bombers, 16,028 medium bombers, 13,651 twin-engine and 26,404 single-engine light bombers, and 10,590 single-engine and 89,358 twin-engine fighters...197,696 aircraft.

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
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Posts: 852

Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/23/2018 11:26:35 PM
If your talking Lend lease to Russia the food has to come into the discussion remembering how much of their production fell in 41'

LEATHER GOODS. continued FOODSTUFFS, continued
Leather lining, ex. sh. & lamb 125 $ 94. Milk & cream condensed 60,019,643 lbs. $ 9,027,160.
Leather & tanned skins, n.e. s. -- 491,068. Milk & cream evaporated 8,942,706 lbs. 4,905,667.
Leather manufactures, n.e.s. -- 14,866. Milk, dried whole skimmed 159,921,528 lbs. 30,804,571.
Luggage 82 858. Butter 217,660,666 lbs. 103,673,250.
Fur manufactures, n.e.s. -- 4,75O. Butter oil, & butter spreads 7,1ll,737 lbs. 4,168,845.
Oleo oil, edible, oleo stock, edible
POODSTUFFS tallow, edible, lard, incl. neutral,
Meat, canned, n.e.s. 72,000 lbs. 25,762. oleomargarine 791,822,417 lbs. 124,387,146.
Poultry, live 6,300 lbs. 7,384.
Beef & veal, fresh or frozen 89,238 lbs. 13,786. Cheese, processed blended spreads,
Beef & veal, pickled or cured 32,400 lbs. 6,383. cheese, n.e.s. 79,926,896 lbs. 2,904,957.
Pork, pickled, salted, fresh, Gelatin, edible 18,690 lbs. 16,653.
frozen 529,814,747 lbs. 77,010,566. Meat extract & bouillon cubes 685 lbs. 1,185.
Ham & shoulders, cured 27,355,903 lbs. 8,794,783. Other edible animal products, n.e.s. -- 222,593.
Bacon 70,531,571 lbs. 11,790,369. infants' foods, malted milk, etc. 115,663 lbs. 21,022.
Cumber1and & Willshlre sides 40,000 lbs. 10,400. Barley 477,30l bu. 707,672.
Sausage, bologna, etc., not canned 1,301,439 lbs. 477,075. buckwheat 5,744 bu. 17,446.
Sausage ingredients, cured 573,031 lbs. 82,876. Corn 30,429 bu. 194,230.
Meats, n.e.s. includ. snoked Hominy & corn grits 1,645,02l bu. 45,600.
poultry 33,610,181 lbs. 16,130,915. Kafir & milo 142 bu. 870.
Beef, canned 16,710,448 lbs. 4,735,745. Oats 120,830 bu. 91,231.
Pork, canned 297,186,838 lbs. 123,784,465. Oatmeal groats & rolled oats in
Sausage, bologna, etc., canned 583,479,422 lbs. 204,150,308. bulk, in packages 50,539,897 lbs. 2,220,748.
Chicken, canned 109,793 lbs. 46,879. Cornstarch & corn flour 478,692 lbs. 36,663.
Other canned meats, excl. chicken 2,405,696,825 lbs. 180,764,722. Paddy or rough rice 9,089,681 lbs. 478,984.
Tushenka, canned 166,650,966 lbs. 70,335,231. Milled rice, incl. browa rice,
Fish, canned 291,227 lbs. 41,882. broken, etc. 126,387,202 1bs. 7,893,998.
Eggs dried 242,459,249 lbs. 280,800,963. Rye 10,268 bu. 36,300.
Eggs in the shell 1,883 doz. 4,038. Wheat 1,512,973 bu. 2,119,872.
Wheat floar, n.e.s. 26,929 bar. l47,509.

Page eightteen

Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars
FOODSTUFFS, continued FOODSTUFFS, continued
Wheat flour, wholly of U.S. wheat 7,806,589 bar. $34,527,968. Oranges, tangerines, & grapefruit 810 boxes $ 4,884.
Marcaroni, spaghetti, etc. 353,224 lbs. 53,103. Pears, fresh or frozen 750 boxes 75.
Wheat cereal foods, ready to eat 171,734 lbs. 19,088. Sugar 1,019,602,323 boxes 59,128,817.
Wheat cereal foods, to be cooked 1,496,043 lbs. 100,795. Honey 29,693 lbs. 10,770.
Wheat semolina 57,869,814 lbs. 2,514,115. Molasses 18 gals. 14.
Cereal foods, n.e.s. 15,613,037 lbs. 1,462,l45. Glucose, dry 35,1l0 lbs. 3,686.
Grains & preparations, n.e.s. -- 4,199,246. Coffee, roasted 1,055,552 lbs. 354,612.
Feeds, n.e.s. 11,053 tons 7l4,120. Coffee extracts & substitutes 15,782 lbs. 4,9l9.
Beans, dry, ripe 492,521,079 lbs. 30,353,423. Cbocolate candy, candy excl. choco-
Beans, seed 11,974,704 lbs. 2,353,676. late, confections, n.e.s. 946,464 lbs. l96,927.
Peas, dry, ripe 59,116,953 lbs. 3,423,782. Chocolate & cocoa 62,696 lbs. 16,121.
Peas, seed 16,324,197 lbs. 1,863,607. Cinnamon, clovca, uaground spices,
Chickpeas 80,000 lbs. 6,557. pepper 596,861 lbs. l30,824.
Onions, fresh 661,932 lbs. 43,157. Fruit juices 724,234 gals. 1,537,036.
Tomatoes, fresh 126 lbs. 12. Canned fruits 92,454 lbs. 10,839.
Potatoes, fresh white 4,919,062 lbs. 227,601. Fruit preparations, n.e.s. l2,060,382 lbs. 342,861.
Vegetables, fresh, n.e.s. 169,212. Preserved fruits, jelles & jams 6,858,277 lbs. 392,757.
Canned vegetables & juices 33,339,138 lbs. 3,491,283. Dried & evaporated fruits 4,372,578 lbs. 780,880.
Pickles, cucumber 136,021 lbs. 27,174. Vegetables, dehydrated-other
Tomato table sauces 636 lbs. 133. preparations 43,590,879 lbs. 28,79l,213.
Mayonnaise & salad-dressings, Nuts & preparations, n.e.s. 6,056,758 lbs. l,0l5,846.
sauces 52,261 lbs. 10,333. Biscuits & crackers 89 lbs. 30.
Olives 71 lbs. 33. Corn cereal food, ready to eat 83 lbs. 22.
Vinegar 128,890 gals. 112,459. Farinaceous substances 30 lbs. 8.
Yeast l,590,587 lbs. 504,036. Edible oils & cooking fats 235,115,716 lbs. 37,996,411.
Pineapples 26 boxes 2l1. Soya flour, edible 103,772,226 lbs. 1,718,512.
Vanilla beans 730 boxes 7,102. Wheat flour, wholly of U.S. wheat 2,050,6l3 cwt. 8,276,256.
Apples 3,653 boxes 15,423. Beverages, syrup & flavors 286 gals. 433.
Lemmons & limes 595 boxes 4,969. Banana, fresh 40,136 lbs. 2,571.

---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/24/2018 12:00:50 AM
I'd also add that after tanks and aircraft there were over 400,000 other vehicles shipped by the US mostly, jeeps and one and half and two and a half ton trucks. I believe it was Zhukov who was supposed to have said that about 70% of the transportation used by the Red Army during the war came from US Lend Lease.
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anemone
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/24/2018 4:56:37 AM
Many thanks for your interest and input John--most impressive.

Regards

Jim
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anemone
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/24/2018 5:24:34 AM
The Soviets recovered 250,000 German and Romanian corpses in and around Stalingrad, and total Axis casualties (Germans, Romanians, Italians, and Hungarians) are believed to have been more than 800,000 dead, wounded, missing, or captured.

Of the 91,000 men who surrendered, only some 5,000–6,000 ever returned to their homelands (the last of them a full decade after the end of the war in 1945); the rest died in Soviet prison and labour camps.

On the Soviet side, official Russian military historians estimate that there were 1,100,000 Red Army dead, wounded, missing, or captured in the campaign to defend the city. An estimated 40,000 civilians died as well.

Regards

Jim
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George
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/24/2018 7:59:02 AM
I found a document published by the British Information Services in 1944.

The title is BRITAIN'S PART IN LEND-LEASE AND MUTUAL AID.

I am reading between the lines but the introduction has as its heading, "Lend-Lease is Not a One Way Street" and so I wondered whether there was some sensitivity in Britain because of the quantity of goods and matériel that US lend lease provided.


Quote:

The British people, well aware of the part played by American Lend-Lease in the hard days of 1941, have long been anxious to know what Lend-Lease aid Britain in her turn is giving to the United States and other members of the United Nations.


The document was a little confusing to me because the British government used the term Mutual Aid which is the name that Canada used for its aid programme.

It is an overview of the goods and services that Great Britain provided to the US and to the USSR and other allies.


Quote:

Starting in 1941, Lend-Lease gave help to Britain from the vast industrial resources of the United States, at a time when Britain was standing almost alone against the Axis. While the United States was still at peace, the flow was overwhelmingly in one direction. But after Pearl Harbor, the nature of Lend-Lease slowly changed. Other nations, including Britain, instituted their own forms of Lend-Lease, and began supplying goods and services to one another. In this way, Lend-Lease developed into Mutual Aid—the pooling of the resources of all the United Nations.


I suppose that the British Information Services wanted to establish that Lend-Lease was not all receive, receive even as they acknowledge the massive quantities of goods shipped from the US.


[Read More]


As well, Lend Lease was a risk for the US and the financial underpinnings of the project were always a topic of discussion.

The US Office of the Historian published some of the communications and meetings that occurred during the L-L period.

Topics such as British finances, valuation of goods shipped, indicate that this was also a business deal and had to be properly managed.

[Read More]

How much tension existed between the governments of the US and GB as L-L unfolded and details were discussed and implemented?

Cheers,

George

Phil andrade
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/24/2018 8:38:25 AM

Quote:
The Soviets recovered 250,000 German and Romanian corpses in and around Stalingrad, and total Axis casualties (Germans, Romanians, Italians, and Hungarians) are believed to have been more than 800,000 dead, wounded, missing, or captured.

Of the 91,000 men who surrendered, only some 5,000–6,000 ever returned to their homelands (the last of them a full decade after the end of the war in 1945); the rest died in Soviet prison and labour camps.

On the Soviet side, official Russian military historians estimate that there were 1,100,000 Red Army dead, wounded, missing, or captured in the campaign to defend the city. An estimated 40,000 civilians died as well.

Regards

Jim
--anemone



Jim,

Those figures are staggering, aren’t they ?

The Soviet figure of 1.1 million for Stalingrad is almost exactly three times the French figure for Verdun, the battle with which it is often compared.

Both were battles of enormous symbolic importance. How striking a feature it is today that the name of Stalingrad has now been dropped, and replaced with Volgograd ! I suspect that many Russians would prefer to reinstate the title of Stalingrad : Putin especially !

Regards, Phil
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anemone
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/24/2018 8:38:30 AM
Hi George-Lend Lease is not a subject that I am "au fait" with--so I ought to see where it all started.I have extracted a copy of the Agreement for this business deal; because this was not largesse but purchases made by BG. My apologies for the long winded, but by no means complete, quotation.


Quote:
John Maynard Keynes a British subject, then in poor health and shortly before his death, was sent by the United Kingdom to the United States and Canada to obtain more funds.

British politicians expected that in view of the United Kingdom's contribution to the war effort, especially for the lives lost before the United States entered the fight in 1941, America would offer favorable terms. Instead of a grant or a gift, however, Keynes was offered a loan on favorable terms.

Historian Alan Sked has commented that, "the U.S. didn't seem to realize that Britain was bankrupt", and that the loan was "denounced in the House of Lords, but in the end the country had no choice." America offered $US 3.75bn (US$51 billion in 2018) and Canada contributed another US$1.19 bn (US$16 billion in 2018), both at the rate of 2% annual interest. The total amount repaid, including interest, was $7.5bn (£3.8bn) to the US and US$2bn (£1bn) to Canada.

The loan was made subject to conditions, the most damaging of which was the convertibility of sterling. Though not the intention, the effect of convertibility was to worsen British post-war economic problems. International sterling balances became convertible one year after the loan was ratified, on 15 July 1947.

Within a month, nations with sterling balances (e.g. pounds which they had earned from buying British exports, and which they were now permitted to sell to Britain in exchange for dollars) had drawn almost a billion dollars from British dollar reserves,

forcing the British government to suspend convertibility and to begin immediate drastic cuts in domestic and overseas expenditure. The rapid loss of dollar reserves also highlighted the weakness of sterling, which was duly devalued in 1949 from $4.02 to $2.80.


Regards

Jim

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anemone
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/24/2018 10:32:57 AM

Quote:
Both were battles of enormous symbolic importance. How striking a feature it is today that the name of Stalingrad has now been dropped, and replaced with Volgograd ! I suspect that many Russians would prefer to reinstate the title of Stalingrad : Putin especially !


Phil why do you suspect that many Russians would prefer to reinstate the title of Stalingrad-is it because of it's enormous historical potential--come to think about --Why was it changed to Volgograd ?????

Regards

Jim
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Phil andrade
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/24/2018 1:48:00 PM
Jim,

Resurgent Russian nationalism under Putin has perhaps gone some way to rehabilitating Uncle Joe.

I have never been to Russia so my knowledge is too limited to afford me any pretence of knowing whereof I speak here.

The city stands on the banks of the Volga. Hence its present name. Likewise, Verdun is on the banks of the Meuse.

IIUC, the downfall of the Soviet Union has been an aching wound in the Russian psyche . ....the old regime was repudiated , but now there is a hunger to glory in its achievements - above all the defeat of Hitler’s Germany 1941-45.

Regards, Phil

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kaii
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/24/2018 3:23:25 PM

Quote:
Jim,

Resurgent Russian nationalism under Putin has perhaps gone some way to rehabilitating Uncle Joe.

I have never been to Russia so my knowledge is too limited to afford me any pretence of knowing whereof I speak here.

The city stands on the banks of the Volga. Hence its present name. Likewise, Verdun is on the banks of the Meuse.

IIUC, the downfall of the Soviet Union has been an aching wound in the Russian psyche . ....the old regime was repudiated , but now there is a hunger to glory in its achievements - above all the defeat of Hitler’s Germany 1941-45.

Regards, Phil


--Phil andrade


You are quite right Phil, Stalin, ww2 and the famous battles are now verymuch part of the Putin/Duginproject to keep control of the Russian psyche.
The war in Ukraine is being portrayed as a continuation of the Great Patriotic War, with the motherland again fighting a fascist invasion.

Lend Lease is an area of big politics now, and Russian historians have now been banne from showing anything else than total statitsics for all war years comined, to underline that lend lease was insignificant in comparison to Soviet production of materials, weapons and food.
However, if one looks at lend leasein the light of importance in stopping the German advance in 1941 and 42, the picture is very different, and does not fit the Russian narrative that Soviet Union defeated Germany on its own.

I could well imagine seeing Stalingrad and Leningrad as city names popping up again at some stage when other sources of latent patriotism have been burnt.

K
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George
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/24/2018 4:21:01 PM

Quote:
Historian Alan Sked has commented that, "the U.S. didn't seem to realize that Britain was bankrupt", and that the loan was "denounced in the House of Lords, but in the end the country had no choice." America offered $US 3.75bn (US$51 billion in 2018) and Canada contributed another US$1.19 bn (US$16 billion in 2018), both at the rate of 2% annual interest. The total amount repaid, including interest, was $7.5bn (£3.8bn) to the US and US$2bn (£1bn) to Canada.


Hello Jim,

Missing from this quote is information about a transaction between Canada and the UK that occurred in 1941.

Canada realized that Britain was going broke in trying to finance the war.

Canada had spent a lot of money in tooling up to meet the demands of contracts placed by Britain in Canada. As well, Canada had been shipping tons of food product to the UK.

When the US introduced Lend Lease, Canada rightly feared that contracts placed by the UK in Canada were in jeopardy.

And so in Jan. of 1941 it was announced that Canada would offer a grant of $1 billion CDN to assist Britain in buying goods from Canada.

In addition, an interest free loan of $700 million was made.

This was prior to the onset of Canada's Mutual Aid programme which also provided goods and matériel to allies

The loans mentioned in the quote above were extended in 1946.

anemone
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/25/2018 4:15:59 AM
George

Quote:
Canada had its own version of lend-lease for Britain. Canada gave Britain gifts totaling $3.5 billion during the war, plus a zero-interest loan of $1 billion; Britain used the money to buy Canadian food and war supplies. Canada also loaned $1.2 billion on a long-term basis to Britain immediately after the war; these loans were fully repaid in late 2006.[67]

(RCAF Station Gander) located at Gander International Airport, built in 1936 in Newfoundland, was leased by Britain to Canada for 99 years because of its urgent need for the movement of fighter and bomber aircraft to Britain. The lease became redundant when Newfoundland became Canada's tenth province in 1949.

Most American Lend-Lease aid comprised supplies purchased in the U.S., but Roosevelt allowed Lend-Lease to purchase supplies from Canada, for shipment to Britain, China and the Soviet Union.
Wikipedia

Regards

Jim
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John R. Price
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/25/2018 5:16:24 AM
Anemone/Jim,

Russia never repaid a dime of the 1945 total $11bil in US Lend Lease sent to them and I doubt GB saw any repayment from them either.
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anemone
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/25/2018 5:31:37 AM
Good Morning John

During the war the USSR supposedly provided an unknown number of shipments of rare minerals to the US Treasury as a form of cashless repayment of Lend-Lease. This was agreed before the signing of the first protocol on 1 October 1941 and extension of credit. Some of these shipments were intercepted by the Germans.

In May 1942, HMS Edinburgh was sunk while carrying 4.5 tonnes of Soviet gold intended for the U.S. Treasury. This gold was salvaged in 1981 and 1986--sur but what happened to it--was transsipped to the USA??.

In June 1942, SS Port Nicholson was sunk en route from Halifax, Canada to New York, allegedly with Soviet platinum, gold, and industrial diamonds aboard. However, none of this cargo has been salvaged, but no documentation of it has been produced.

There are differences of opinion whether shipments like the above were considered payments, since they never actually arrived. These are just a couple of instances.

It seems Lend Lease really was used like "loaning a neighbor a hose during a fire" in that it was get them what they need now, whatever it takes!

There are missing records, agreements and documentation of all sorts.

Regards

Jim
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George
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/25/2018 8:19:43 AM
It seems to me that the USSR came to some sort of an agreement with the US in the early '70's. They paid back millions of dollars. I don't know the value of that repayment.

As well, did the US not present the USSR with an enormous bill at the end of hostilities and did Stalin not ask for an audit on the bill? Was it an extreme amount as relations between the two countries had soured?

I realize that the US did not expect to have weapons and vehicles returned under L-L with most countries, even though that may have been the original idea, to sell the concept.

But I thought that the USSR returned a few ships although they were supposed to return much more.

And yes, the USSR was a participant in reverse L-L. They provided some valuable raw materials to the US.

Of course, the value of reverse L-L by the Soviets could not match the value of goods delivered by the US.

Was it supposed to?

Lend Lease was a generous act and a brave political act by FDR, (my opinion only of course).

But given the suffering by the USSR and the load that they carried to defeat the Nazis, does it not appear unseemly to gripe about insufficient repayment of L-L goods supplied?

As much as the USSR was an odious regime, I think that we have to appreciate that the support given to them kept them in the war and perhaps saved thousands of lives of the western allies.

anemone
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/25/2018 8:35:24 AM

Quote:
As much as the USSR was an odious regime, I think that we have to appreciate that the support given to them kept them in the war and perhaps saved thousands of lives of the western allies.
George

I freely confess to agree with George's statement above


Quote:
During Nikita Khrushchev’s rule in the late 1950s and early 1960s, there was a window of greater frankness and openness about the extent of aid supplied from the West under the Lend-Lease Act—but it was still clearly forbidden for Soviet authors to suggest that such aid ever made any real difference on the battlefield.

Mentions of Lend-Lease in memoirs were always accompanied by disparagement of the quality of the weapons supplied, with American and British tanks and planes invariably portrayed as vastly inferior to comparable Soviet models.

An oft-quoted statement by First Vice-Chairman of the Council of People’s Commissars Nikolai Voznesensky summed up the standard line that Allied aid represented “only 4 percent” of Soviet production for the entire war.

Lacking any detailed information to the contrary, Western authors generally agreed that even if Lend-Lease was important from 1943 on, as quantities of aid dramatically increased, the aid was far too little and late to make a difference in the decisive battles of 1941–1942.

But since the collapse of the Soviet Union, a trickle of information has emerged from archives in Moscow, shedding new light on the subject. While much of the documentary evidence remains classified “secret” in the Central Archives of the Ministry of Defense and the Russian State Archive of the Economy, Western and Russian researchers have been able to gain access to important, previously unavailable firsthand documents.


Regards

Jim

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richto90

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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/25/2018 11:45:54 AM

Quote:
Anemone/Jim,

Russia never repaid a dime of the 1945 total $11bil in US Lend Lease sent to them and I doubt GB saw any repayment from them either.
--John R. Price


Sorry, but that simply isn't true. The US tried to gouge the USSR into paying $1.3-billon, after the USSR actually returned much of the weapons and equipment as stipulated and after the US had written down the loans to many other combatants. So the US recalculated, inflated the loan rate, and settled on a figure of $722 in 1972 of which $48 million was paid. A new tiff over trade intervened and payments ceased until after the collapse of the Soviet Union, but the remaining $678 million was paid off by August 2006...four months before the UK paid off its obligation.

anemone
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Re: Battle of Stalingrad--Operation Uranus-19--23 November 1943
Posted on: 11/25/2018 12:04:15 PM
Many thanks Rich for clearing up the issue of the USSR;s LL debt.I guess that none of us knew exactly what the final outcome re. LL debt was.It had got lost in the mists of time for the ordinary man in the street.

Regards

Jim
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