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 (1939-1945) WWII Battles
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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Commemmorating D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/6/2019 12:12:16 PM
On D-Day, 6 June 1944, Allied forces launched a combined naval, air and land assault on Nazi-occupied France.

Codenamed Operation 'Overlord', the Allied landings on the Normandy beaches marked the start of a long and costly campaign to liberate north-west Europe from German occupation.

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Regards

Jim
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
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E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1370

Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/6/2019 12:26:49 PM
And what might have been. https://content.artofmanliness.com/uploads//2012/06/dday.jpg

anemone
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/6/2019 12:49:51 PM
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I have to confess OP that I never knew that Cherburg was a D Day objective although I knew that te port was of vital imprtance to the US in terms of supplies of much materiel.

NB.The Allied planners decided at first not to land directly on the Cotentin Peninsula, since this sector would be separated from the main Allied landings by the Douve River valley, which had been flooded by the Germans to deter airborne landings.

On being appointed overall land commander for the invasion in January 1944, British Army General Bernard Montgomery reinstated the landing on the Cotentin peninsula, partly to widen the front and therefore prevent the invaders becoming sealed into a narrow lodgement, but also to enable a rapid capture of Cherbourg.

Regards

Jim
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/6/2019 5:15:23 PM
Ike was just drawing the limits of the first assaults. Cherbourg was liberated on the 27th. It took a while longer to make the port operational.

Phil andrade
London, UK
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/6/2019 5:57:56 PM
How close was this battle ?

Once the Allies had established their footing, did the Germans stand a decent chance of turning things in their favour ?

Eleven weeks of intense fighting ensued after D-Day. The histories tell of bad days and bitter German resistance , and severe casualties, with alarmingly high numbers of allied infantrymen succumbing to nervous breakdown , of difficult weather and logistical problems, of disharmony between the Anglo American commanders, of failure to capture key objectives on schedule etc.

To make things worse, it’s been estimated that fifteen - maybe even twenty - thousand French civilians perished in the deluge of allied firepower that smashed up Caen, St Lo and other townships and hamlets.

Or, to turn this question round a bit, could - and should - the Allies have prevailed more quickly than they did ?

Regards, Phil
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/6/2019 6:24:06 PM
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/these-d-day-numbers-will-blow-your-mind-m.html

redcoat
Stockport, UK
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Posts: 337

Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/6/2019 6:24:59 PM

Quote:


Or, to turn this question round a bit, could - and should - the Allies have prevailed more quickly than they did ?

Regards, Phil
--Phil andrade
The Allies reached the Seine ahead of schedule, even though the build up had been disrupted by severe weather in the Channel.
Also, the so-called disharmony was between Ike headquarters in London and Monty's headquarters in Normandy rather than between the senior generals in France, and even that was nothing to the infighting going on between the German generals.

Brian Grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/6/2019 7:13:16 PM
I don't think Monty helped with his outrageously optimistic predictions; only one of the armies landing on D-Day met their objectives, and one beach was under some question for some time. And I don't think the western allies were prepared for either the terrain or the skill of the Germans they faced as the Allies attempted to move inland. But once the initial lodgement was assured, I don't think there was much doubt of the outcome. A lot of hard slogging, yes, and a huge learning curve. But once the US broke through the bocage and the Commonwealth troops finally took Caen, the retreat by the remaining Germans and the slaughter at the Falaise Gap pretty much made the case for Allied victory. Allied superiority in the air was a vital plus factor, but I think the simple abundance the West could draw on – men, equipment, supplies, ordnance – was bound to carry the day.

Personally, I don't think there is ever a realistic timeline when talking about more than a skirmish or raid, Phil. In conventional warfare, it seems that the longer the conflict the greater the losses in everything military, including the slaughters of civilians at St. Lo and Caen.

And at the risk of pissing everybody off, I believe it important to remember that there were a much vaster battles ongoing on the East Front, and an uglier campaign being waged against an unforgiving enemy in the Pacific. I'm not downplaying in any way the immensity of the enterprise that was Overlord and aftermath, or naysaying the bravery of the young men who walked into the mouth of the hell that those beaches must have been. We had been invited to a a vicious ongoing party; this was the time we arrived.

Cheers
Brian G
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Brian Grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/6/2019 9:21:09 PM
A story not well-known but worth repeating ... .

Any WW2 history buff has heard of the "Dam Buster" squadron, known more regularly as 617 Squadron, RAF. On D-Day, they played a little-known but potentially vital role, without bombing anybody or anything.

They were given the assignment of flying over the Channel for hours, at specific height and to a specific pattern. Boring, repetitive, and outrageously demanding, but required. Their height, flight pattern and precision were expected to trick German radar installations into identifying Lancasters as an armada possibly sailing for the Dover-Calais strait, hence suggesting there was an invasion fleet heading for where the Germans expected any allied landing.

I like this story, because it suggests that not all essential or important feats earn wild plaudits. This was an amazingly intricate and challenging op, perhaps tied into the Patton ruse. Most aircrews would not have been able to fly the precision routes demanded, but the fact they flew to perfection simply meant nothing happened.

Think of that when you think of how Overlord succeeded!

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

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redcoat
Stockport, UK
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/7/2019 1:16:09 AM

Quote:
I don't think Monty helped with his outrageously optimistic predictions; only one of the armies landing on D-Day met their objectives,
Monty didn't make any promises about D-Day, he merely set objectives he wanted his armies to reach and if they didn't he merely shrugged his shoulders and altered his plans to cope with the new situation.
Quote:
and one beach was under some question for some time.
Which one ? As far as I'm aware they were all secure by nightfall.


anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/7/2019 3:29:03 AM
It was one of the most complex military operations ever undertaken, with 160,000 troops crossing the Channel on a single day, accompanied by hundreds of warships and aircraft.

But a handwritten note believed to have been drafted a month or two before the D-Day landings shows that Gen Bernard Montgomery’s battle plan boiled down to a single piece of paper.


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Regads

Jim
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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/7/2019 8:36:15 AM
I am of the opinion that remembering the military secrecy and lies that made D-Day successful. ...

The resulting operation — D-Day — was a major turning point in World War II. Some 150,000 Allied troops landed that day on multiple beachheads in France to fight the Nazis, the largest amphibious military landing ever.


Rears

Jim
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/7/2019 8:40:55 AM
"The truth is such a fragile thing that it must be protected by a bodyguard of lies." (From memory.)

FUSAG, or as I call it "Fake US Army Group" was one of the best red herrings in military history.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/7/2019 9:20:16 AM
Guys,

All good points on Operation Overlord, it was massive & very complex, & of course costly! Anyone have the final figures on casualties!?

Well done Allies!
MD
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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/7/2019 9:25:54 AM
Thanks for FUSAG OP

Tricks of the Trade

Patton’s ghost army was based out of Dover, East Anglia and other areas of southeast England.

The choice of location made it look like the Allies were going to push across the English Channel straight into the port of Calais, but also left the operation vulnerable to German snooping.

To leave no doubt in Hitler’s mind that FUSAG was a formidable threat and that an attack on Calais was imminent, Allied intelligence launched a multi-pronged campaign of deception against the Germans.

PS.It too asupports my original belief in subterfuge

Regards

Jim
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richto90

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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/7/2019 10:02:17 AM

Quote:
"The truth is such a fragile thing that it must be protected by a bodyguard of lies." (From memory.)

FUSAG, or as I call it "Fake US Army Group" was one of the best red herrings in military history.
--OpanaPointer


Technically, FUSAG was not fake, but it conducted fake "operations" while in Britain, until it went operational for real on the Continent at midnight 31 July 1944.

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
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Posts: 1370

Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/7/2019 10:30:45 AM
The "Fake" is for the faux equipment they planted. (Long version "Faked It".) No GI, Canuck or Tommy who could make it was going to miss THE BIG SHOW.

richto90

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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/7/2019 10:52:22 AM

Quote:
The "Fake" is for the faux equipment they planted. (Long version "Faked It".) No GI, Canuck or Tommy who could make it was going to miss THE BIG SHOW.
--OpanaPointer


That wasn't FUSAG planting fake equipment, but 23d HQ & HQ Det, Spec Tps and its attached units, 406th Engr C Co (Special), 603d Engr Camo Bn (Special), and Det, 3132d Sig Svc Co (Special).

For the invasion, FUSAG (less those personnel detached to augment Bradley's FUSA) acted as the U.S. Administrative Staff for the Supreme Commander. Under authority of the War Department, ETOUSA General Orders (GO) 74, activated Headquarters, FUSAG on 19 October 1943, in London, England under the command of Lieutenant General Omar Nelson Bradley. ETOUSA GO 73 redesignated it as 12th U.S. Army Group, effective 14 July 1944. 12th Army Group, Report of Operations (Final After Action Report), 12th Army Group, Volume I, Summary, (12th Army Group, 31 July 1945), p. 6. Various of its signals units also participated in the radio deception program.


anemone
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/7/2019 12:04:26 PM
On July 31, 1944, the Americans on the Allies’ right, newly supported by the landing of the U.S. 3rd Army under Patton, broke through the German defenses at Avranches, the gateway from Normandy into Brittany. On August 7 a desperate counterattack by four panzer divisions from Mortain, east of Avranches, failed to seal the breach, and American tanks poured southward through the gap and flooded the open country beyond. Though some of the U.S. forces were then swung southwestward in the hope of seizing the Breton ports in pursuance of the original prescription of “Overlord” and though some went on in more southerly directions toward the crossings of the Loire, others were wheeled eastward—to trap, in the Falaise “pocket,” a large part of the German forces retreating southward from the pressure of the Allies’ left at Caen. The Americans’ wide eastward flanking maneuver after the breakout speedily produced a general collapse of the German position in northern France.

Meanwhile, more and more Allied troops were being landed in Normandy. On August 1, two army groups were constituted: the 21st (comprising the British and Canadian armies) under Montgomery; and the 12th (for the Americans) under Bradley. By the middle of August an eastward wheel wider than that which had cut off the Falaise pocket had brought the Americans to Argentan, southeast of Falaise and level with the British and Canadian advance on the left (north) of the Allies’ front, so that a concerted drive eastward could now be launched; and on August 19 a U.S. division successfully crossed the Seine at Mantes-Gassicourt. Already on August 17 the Americans on the Loire had taken Orléans. The clandestine French Resistance in Paris rose against the Germans on August 19; and a French division under General Jacques Leclerc, pressing forward from Normandy, received the surrender of the German forces there and liberated the city on August 25.

Rgards
Jim







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richto90

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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/7/2019 8:09:06 PM

Quote:
Meanwhile, more and more Allied troops were being landed in Normandy. On August 1, two army groups were constituted: the 21st (comprising the British and Canadian armies) under Montgomery; and the 12th (for the Americans) under Bradley.


It's a bit more complicated than that for the American Army, which isn't unusual. Technically, 12th Army Group was never "constituted", since that has a special meaning in the U.S. Army. A unit is only "constituted" by Congress, which regulates the size and structure of the Army and its general officer corps. Thus, FUSA was first activated in France by order of General Pershing, but it was first constituted by Congress in the Organized Reserves postwar in 1921. Similarly, FUSAG was activated 19 October 1943, with station at London, England, by General Order 74, Headquarters ETOUSA, dated 16 October 1943. It was activated as 12th Army Group on 14 July 1944, but did not become operational until midnight,31 July 1944.

The trick was, when Bradley assumed command of FUSAG on 19 October, he was also Commanding general, FUSA, which is where most of his staff remained. Then, when 12th Army Group went operational, Bradley took his personnel staff and quite a few of his pick of the personnel from FUSA with him, leaving FUSA under Hodges to scamble a bit.



anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/8/2019 11:50:15 AM
It was the largest amphibious invasion in the history of warfare. On June 6, 1944, more than 150,000 brave young soldiers from the United States, the United Kingdom and Canada stormed the beaches of Normandy, France in a bold strategy to push the Nazis out of Western Europe and turn the tide of the war for good.

In planning the D-Day attack, Allied military leaders knew that casualties might be staggeringly high, but it was a cost they were willing to pay in order to establish an infantry stronghold in France. Days before the invasion, General Dwight D. Eisenhower was told by a top strategist that paratrooper casualties alone could be as high as 75 percent. Nevertheless, he ordered the attack.Casualties were of the order of 10,000 inluding 4414 cinfirmed dead.


Regards

Jim
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dt509er
Santa Rosa, CA, USA
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Posts: 725

Re: Commemmorati D Day 6th June 1944
Posted on: 6/8/2019 5:53:54 PM
The first 10 weeks, animated map,

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