MHO Home   Forum Home   Help   Register   Login
 
 
Welcome to MilitaryHistoryOnline.com.
You are not signed in.
The current time is: 1/16/2019 1:53:30 PM
 (1861-1865) Civil War Battles (Eastern Theater)
AuthorMessage
Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4489

1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/17/2018 7:15:53 PM
Gentlemen,

Do you have 47 minutes? If you love the Civil War Battles, like Fredericksburg! Please check out the video, never released by the History Channel, titled, The Civil War from all sides", the 1862 Battle of Fredericksburg! This unreleased CW Documentary uses computer graphics to help you understand this battle as never before!? ( note it does have some pauses of a black screen, bare with it!)

[Read More]


Please watch & comment, is it a help to use modern effects?
or you can just talk about the battle itself!?

What say you?

Regards,
MD


Is it true after repelling Pickett's Charge that the Union Troops shouted Fredericksburg! Fredericksburg!?

[Read More]


Or is it just Hollywood!?

MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4489

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/20/2018 10:11:04 AM
If ever there was a example of bad Union Generalship Fredericksburg, & stupid General Burnside is it!?

[Read More]


Why, he should have been relieved of command, immediately!
What say you?

MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3600

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/21/2018 2:42:03 AM
Dave,

First and foremost , a thousand thanks for posting that film link on the battle.

I’ve only managed to watch the first ten minutes or so, but I’m absolutely delighted with it and can’t wait to complete the viewing when I get the chance....hopefully , later on today.

I look forward to discussing the production and the battle with you, and I’ve got some views on Burnside that I’d like to air .

In the meantime, please post more such links on Civil War battles and generalship if you know of others of that calibre. Films and/or lectures, they make a great impression on me.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

GregT
Three Rivers, MA, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist
Posts: 94

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/21/2018 6:45:59 AM
Phil,or anyone else interested,go to "american history tv series c-span.org"

There are over 500 video lectures and panel discussions on the Civil War alone.

You can probably find one on just about any battle, general, or significant participant. Some subjects will have many.

Best of all they can be viewed at your leisure. There are other categories as well.

GregT

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3600

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/21/2018 7:35:44 AM
Brilliant ! Thanks, Greg !
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3600

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/21/2018 11:37:06 AM
Just finished viewing the footage.

It works quite well : gives a series of impressions interspersed with authoratitive commentary from Crocker and O’Reilly.

One of them, O’Reiily, was invited to a history conference that spanned a weekend over here in the UK two or three years ago, and I very much enjoyed meeting him and having dinner with him and other enthusiasts.

It’s interesting to see how the story was aimed at depicting Fredericksburg as portentous : amphibious assault, artillery barrage and street - or even house to house fighting - giving a hint at what was to happen in twentieth century warfare.

I think that this point was laboured too much : if anything, Fredericksburg reflected old fashioned warfare more than it suggested future development, IMHO. But I would hate to be disparaging about something that had so much to recommend it.

Richard Croker’s asessment of Burnside’s personality, and his over compensating for his timid personality by being excessively assertive, struck me as a cogent and sympathetic statement of the burden of high command. I wonder if those huge side - burns were themselves a function of this syndrome !

My own view of Burnside is rather more favourable than many. Certainly, he was a general conspicuous for failure. He himself protested that he wasn’t up to the task. He was, perhaps , more sinned against than sinner. He was tarred with the McClellan brush , having been Little Mac’s protege from his days in business. He did not have McClellan’s ability : but he was not the complete dunderhead that some would have us believe. I suspect that he was sabotaged by officials at Washington who delayed delivery of those pontoon components ; he was also under intense pressure to attack and I feel he had to drink from a poisoned chalice.

He was a genial and brave man, and I think his soldiers liked and respected him : he deserves a slightly better press than history has given him....that word “ slightly “ being important, because his capability was outmatched by his culpability .

Here’s another shot : Longstreet was to prove Burnside’s nemesis at Fredericksburg ; almost one year later, Longstreet insisted on a frontal assault against Burnside at Fort Sanders in the Knoxville fighting at Tennessee. This time, the tables were turned , and Burnside triumphed, inflicting a bloody repulse on Longstreet. We don’t hear much about that.

I must comment on the casualties. There is an uncanny closeness in the casuaties suffered by the AoP at Antietam and Fredericksburg : 12,410 and 12,653 respectively. In terms of the numbers wounded , the figures are astonishingly even, with 9,549 at Antietam and 9,600 at Fredericksburg. There are big differences, though, in the numbers posted as killed and missing. At Antietam, 2,108 yankees were reported as killed in action, compared with only 1,284 at Fredericksburg.
The numbers counted as missing were likewise very different : 753 at Antietam compared with 1,769 at Fredericksburg. The reason for the disparities reflect the fact that at Antietam the Union held the field and could account properly for their dead ; at Fredericksburg , they abandoned the field and were unable to confirm the number of dead to the same extent : of the 1,769 reported as missing, perhaps half had either been killed or were left to die in front of the rebel defences.

Regards , Phil


---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4489

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/21/2018 8:42:17 PM

Quote:
Dave,

First and foremost , a thousand thanks for posting that film link on the battle.

I’ve only managed to watch the first ten minutes or so, but I’m absolutely delighted with it and can’t wait to complete the viewing when I get the chance....hopefully , later on today.

I look forward to discussing the production and the battle with you, and I’ve got some views on Burnside that I’d like to air .

In the meantime, please post more such links on Civil War battles and generalship if you know of others of that calibre. Films and/or lectures, they make a great impression on me.

Regards, Phil
--Phil andrade



Hi Phil,

Thank you, that is high praise, coming from you! glad you liked them!

I think as scholars of the Civil War we all enjoy good sources,

& we are constantly learning more!?


Regards,
Dave

BTW Greg, your right on, about CSPAN History TV,

a in-exhaustible source, on the CW, & other history topics, good call!
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1085

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/22/2018 4:24:21 PM
In "Gettysburg" I saw the Yankees at the stone wall taunting the defeated Rebs with "Fredericksburg! Fredericksburg!" Was this accurate?

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3600

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/22/2018 5:29:49 PM
Probably.....it’s something that I must check ; it seems plausible to me, at least.

Barely six months had passed since Fredericksburg, and the wound was still livid in the AoP’s phsyche.

Open ground in front of a stone wall and a smashing repulse : the similarities might well have been too striking to pass unnoticed .

More specifically, it had been Hancock’s division at Fredericksburg that took some of the most extreme punishment : and it was Hancock’s command that was to bear the brunt of the PPT assault at Gettysburg. I can well believe that many of the yankees who repulsed the rebels in that climactic action had themselves been the recipients of that treatment at the base of Marye’s Heights on 13 December 1862.

My own impression of Fredericksburg is that it is a very evocative place ; although I stood on the ground in peaceful circumstances, there is a certain atmosphere about those fields that bears heavily on those who witness it. To have had the searing experience of being pinned down under fire in front of that stone wall, surrounded by dead and bleeding comrades, was surely enough to make the moment of revenge one worth shouting about.

Fredericksburg and Gettysburg were both largely “ panoramic” battles, with more open ground than the majority of the war’s fighting that raged in timbered battlefields. That might have amplified the sense of exposure and the vulnerability , which in turn made the payback all the more sweet.

There is another Fredericksburg / Gettysburg association : this time the other way round. This is something I suspect, not something that I know.

Barksdale’s Mississippians had been overwhelmed in their defensive position along the stone wall at the base of Marye’s Heights on 3 May 1863, when Sedgwick’s yankees stormed it at bayonet point during the Chancellorsville Campaign . There is an iconic photograph of dead rebel infantrymen taken shortly after that action. I believe that the ardour of Barksdale’s smashing attack on Sickles’s advanced salient on Day Two at Gettysburg was attributable in some degree to a desire to avenge that affair, and it seems that the Mississippi men exacted retribution, with interest.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 887

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/23/2018 6:26:00 AM
Phil,

I hope you don't find this "statistical BS."

What other choice did Longstreet have? When Bragg gets his ass kicked off Lookout Mt and Missionary Ridge it cuts Longstreet off from supply and a easy line of retreat and puts a superior force in his rear and front and his only possible line of retreat through a basically barren of supplies wilderness with few roads back to Virginia. Throw on top of that the very large majority of cavalry being taken from him.


You also have to factor in McLaws and his lack of oversite and orders to build planks and ladders needed to assault the defensive works going a long way in causing defeat and lengthening the casualty lists.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3600

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/23/2018 7:37:53 AM
John,

Your post makes me aware of how little I know about this Knoxville Campaign .

I associate it with Longstreet’s insistence that Fort Sanders be attacked ; the irony of him being so sharply repulsed by Burnside is, of course, something that our Fredericksburg topic invites us to mention.

But now I see that Longstreet was in a difficult position, and you imply that he was more or less forced into making the move that he did.

The same might be said of Burnside in December 1862.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 887

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/23/2018 9:35:53 AM
Phil,

Ft Sanders was always going to have to be taken by assault and IMHO the only reason why it wasn't is the attacking troops didn't have the planks and ladders to cross the ditches/moats and climb the walls. In reality it was like landing the Rangers at Pointe du Hoc but not giving them any tools to climb the cliffs.


McLaws was relieved and faced a court over this.


You also have to know that Bushrod Johnson's and Cleburne's Divisions were supposed to reinforce Longstreet for the attack. One Brigade of Johnson's had arrived, another was en route and Cleburne was starting to board the trains when Grant attacked. Lowry's Brigade ran the last couple of miles to just beat Sherman into their old line on a hill just in front of Tunnel Hill. Grandberry's Brigade filled the main lines on Tunnel Hill and Polk's Brigade held the bridge over Chickamauga Creek and became the rear guard of the army allowing for the escape of the trains and thousands of troops.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3600

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/23/2018 1:21:21 PM
John,

Didn’t McLaws hate Longstreet ?

How extraordinary it is that, while there was bad blood between generals in the East, it never reached anything like the toxic level that it did in the West.

I wonder how far the failure at Fort Sanders might be attributable to this toxicity that had such an appalling effect on Confederate command in the Western theatre.

Was there ever a more lopsided fight than this ?

The rebel storming party took eight hundred casualties in forty minutes, while the yankees defending the ramparts suffered just thirteen casualties.

A sixty to one disparity.

In front of Marye’s Heights the disparity had been a mere six to one in Longstreet’s favour.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 887

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/23/2018 3:50:18 PM
Phil,

Longstreet and McLaws were classmates at West Point and friends in the "old Army" and in the early years of the Confederacy. But in all honesty McLaws didn't live up to the early promise and in a lot of ways was "carried" by a combination/mix of the brigade commanders and regimental leadership of the division and Longstreet. I've seen a good case made that Lee wanted to get rid of him before Gettysburg but Longstreet stood up for him. After Longstreet relieved him and brought charges yes McLaws went wild but the truth is the court found him guilty on some of the charges but Davis overturned the court and put him to work on the GA/SC coast.

So to answer your question about the toxicity I don't think it factored in at all. I think it was McLaws making that final big mistake that can't be overlooked or forgiven. The proverbial straw that broke the camels back.


If I had to guess from reading a couple different unit histories of Kershaw's Brigade I'd say 650 of those casualties came at the base of the walls or on the retreat from the base of the walls.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3600

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/24/2018 5:26:36 AM
John,

Thanks for making that discerning observation about the actual number of casualties that were suffered on the ramparts, or in the ditch, proper.

It certainly helps to avoid the more distorted claim of the sixty to one ratio that I cited.

I took a look at Porter Alexander’s history of the war,and he provides a tabulation that gives the losses for the entire campaign, and it’s very apparent from that that, if you include the more widely dispersed effects of the fighting , and allow for the casualties in addition to those the yankees suffered in the fight above the ditch, the disparity was nowhere near as great.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4489

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/24/2018 9:00:29 AM
Phil,

I believe Porter Alexanders use of the Confederate Artillery at Fredericksburg, could have been his greatest effective triumph using the cannon in the CW!?

[Read More]


What say you?
Effective & deadly!
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3600

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/24/2018 10:11:12 AM
Dave,

Alexander was an outstanding gunner.

His efforts at Fredericksburg did much to contribute to Confederate victory there.

Because that battle appears so lopsided , it’s too easy to underrate the skill and courage that Lee’s men exhibited. Lee himself became anxious that the determined Yankees would break through.

Firepower and clear fields of fire bestowed huge advantage on the defending rebels, and yankee tactics compounded this....but it still took brave men to hold that position, and the pictures of the aftermath of battle along the sunken road on 3 May 1863 reveal graphicallly that those defenders could yet come to grief.

Yes, I would endorse the view that Alexander made a vital difference by the way he deployed his guns : it’s even been suggested that, had he been given his head on 3 July 1863 and been allowed to use his guns in support of Pickett in the manner he advocated , the outcome of the Battle of Gettysburg might have been very different.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 887

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/24/2018 2:30:33 PM
Dave and Phil,

You can't talk about the artillery at Fredricksburg and not mention John Pelham.

https://emergingcivilwar.com/2018/06/30/artillery-john-pelham-artilleryman-gallant-fool-splendid-boy/

"Advancing Union troops were convinced a full battery raked their flank as they moved toward the Confederate position at Prospect Hill near Fredericksburg. Multiple Union batteries opened fire from Stafford Heights, trying to drive out the artillerymen delaying General Meade’s progress toward the Rebel lines.
General Lee occasionally turned his field glasses in the direction of the artillery duel. General Jackson watched the progress and wished for this flank defense in every battle. General Stuart dispatched multiple messengers to the gun’s commander, asking him to withdraw to safety.
At the center of it all – receiving the messages and in Union crossfire – the major directed his artillerymen manning the gun which temporarily stalled a Union corps attack with rapid, enfilading shots. Lying on the ground between duties to try escaping the Union projectiles, the cannoneers swabbed, loaded, and fired while their commander worked alongside them, encouraging, directing, and pitching in to keep the gun firing. Another message arrived from his commander – J.E.B. Stuart – “Get back from destruction, you infernal, gallant fool, John Pelham!”"
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3600

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/24/2018 2:55:54 PM
John,

Yup, John Pelham is to Fredericksburg’s artillerymen as is the Prince to Hamlet !

I wonder how far up Fredericksburg ranks in those battles of the war which were largely defined by artillery.

The open , panoramic field gave those gunners a great chance to ply their trade.

Same goes for Gettysburg, and also, I reckon, Antietam.

Malvern Hill comes to mind as the battle in which artillery performed its most crushing power and effect.

I don’t know how much open ground there was in that battle : I’ve been there, about thirty three years ago, but I don’t remember the lie of the land.

The Wilderness did not afford artillery a good field of fire, although , on 6 May 1864, Poague’s rebel gunners made themselves very effective at the clearing of the Widow Tapp farm. One year earlier, in that vicinity, Hazel Grove had been vital ground for deployment of the guns, and its possession proved decisive in the outcome of the Chancellorsville fighting.

Spotsylvania on 18 May 1864 and Peachtree Creek on 20 July that year also gave artillerymen their chance to command the battle.

There are other episodes that come to mind : the repulse of the rebel attack at Murfreesboro on 2 January 1863, for example.

I get the impression that artillery in that war did more damage than hospital records suggest.

Regards, Phil

---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 2438

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/24/2018 10:25:41 PM

Quote:
Phil,

Longstreet and McLaws were classmates at West Point and friends in the "old Army" and in the early years of the Confederacy. But in all honesty McLaws didn't live up to the early promise and in a lot of ways was "carried" by a combination/mix of the brigade commanders and regimental leadership of the division and Longstreet. I've seen a good case made that Lee wanted to get rid of him before Gettysburg but Longstreet stood up for him. After Longstreet relieved him and brought charges yes McLaws went wild but the truth is the court found him guilty on some of the charges but Davis overturned the court and put him to work on the GA/SC coast.

So to answer your question about the toxicity I don't think it factored in at all. I think it was McLaws making that final big mistake that can't be overlooked or forgiven. The proverbial straw that broke the camels back.


If I had to guess from reading a couple different unit histories of Kershaw's Brigade I'd say 650 of those casualties came at the base of the walls or on the retreat from the base of the walls.

--John R. Price


And yet, Longstreet proposed McClaws as a possible Corps Commander after Chancellorsville. Wasn´t the toxicity in Hood´s Division, rather than McClaw`s, after Longstreet gave Micah Jenkins, who was hated by all the brigade commanders, Hood´s Division instead of Evander Law who had commandered in Hood´s many absences?

Wasn´t McClaws related to Jefferson Davis by marriage ?

Trevor


---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 887

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/25/2018 1:25:12 AM
Trevor,

I think Longstreet might have reminded Lee that McLaws was the senior Major General in the army but actually try and make a case that he was the best choice I doubt. Isn't the source of that McLaws memoirs. I don't think Longstreet was stupid and I do think Lee confided in him. I think he would have known better than to try and seriously advance McLaws name as candidate for corps command.

Hood's first and only absence from Division command would be his wounding at Gettysburg which it was assumed he was coming back so the command only needed a temporary replacement. After the second wound it was assumed he wasn't coming back and the replacement would be permanent. Now Confederate law was that the most senior within the organization gets the promotion automatically but a junior could be promoted over them from outside the organization. The organization in this case being the division of Hood. I don't think this was so much over Law as it was over relieving Jerome Robertson from command of the Texas Brigade. Law doesn't get command anyway Field does. There is a whole lot going on. Personally I think Robertson is fine as long as Hood commands the division because Hood knows how to command Robertson but I'm not sure it was going to work without Hood. Gregg on the other had is a rising star as is his Lt Col one Hiram Grandberry.


Yes through Jefferson Davis' first wife who was the daughter of Zachary Taylor. Mclaws wife was either the younger daughter of Taylor or a niece or maybe a grand-daughter. I'd have to check.

Edit If Lee is confiding in Longstreet he know what is going in Lee's report of Sharpsburg and how pissed off Lee is about McLaws taking close to two days to march from Harpers Ferry. He also knows that it doesn't look good that the senior Major General in the army lets the junior Major General take command when they are the only two on the field.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4489

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/25/2018 9:05:17 AM
Guys,

We do site the effectiveness of Confederate Artillery at Fredericksburg, yet nothing on the Union Artillery? Sure could have used them trained on Marye's Heights?

Were they even there!?
MD

From the Union perspective poor planning, and everything that could go wrong, did go wrong!?
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 887

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/25/2018 10:57:59 AM
Dave,

They would have had to cross the river under fire and deploy under the very effective fire coming from Marye's Heights. Remember what happened to the batteries the ANVA tried to surpress the Union fire coming from Malvern Hill?


They were on Stafford Heights across the river which is why there was no counter attack by Lee.


Actually it was great planning but when the pontoon were late he should have started planning all over again instead of pushing on but when he does that after the Mud march Lincoln replaces him.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4489

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/26/2018 11:07:28 AM
John,

All of those factors come into play, but I just felt that even firing from the other side of the river they could reach the Confederate troops dug in on the heights over looking the battlefield? Not sure of the distances, perhaps they were out of reasonable range? Since I have never been to the Fredericksburg Battlefield I can't say!??

Anyone??
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 887

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/26/2018 1:37:22 PM
Dave,

It has got to be at least 3 miles from the firing line on Stafford Heights to the Stone Wall that holds the front line of Confederate troops. Max range of Civil War field artillery was what about 2000 yards. Reasonable range was the town itself and a little beyond but not the Confederate line nor the heights the artillery was placed on.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 30
E-5 Sergeant
Posts: 414

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/26/2018 2:25:58 PM
I realize this is a "what if" but here goes. Switch Union commanders. Put Bull Sumner on the Union left at the lower crossings and franklin at the foot of Marye's Heights.

Sumner's head down attitude sends in more than Just Meade's division to exploit the breakthrough while cautious Franklin probes the works at the sunken road

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 887

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/26/2018 4:11:36 PM
John,

There are two plus divisions lurking in those woods. Early's Division and Jackson's former Division plus Gregg's Brigade and Pickett's Division is also available.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3600

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/29/2018 7:16:42 AM

Quote:
Phil,or anyone else interested,go to "american history tv series c-span.org"

There are over 500 video lectures and panel discussions on the Civil War alone.

You can probably find one on just about any battle, general, or significant participant. Some subjects will have many.

Best of all they can be viewed at your leisure. There are other categories as well.

GregT
--GregT



You have made my Christmas, Greg !

I have spent several hours listening to these lectures, and have been thoroughly entertained as well as better informed as a result.

Pertinent to this thread is a sympathetic assessment of Burnside’s generalship : I forget the name of the speaker, but he is clearly a first rate authority. He makes no attempt to gloss over Burnside’s mistakes - far from it, he emphasises how serious these were. But he does draw attention to the positive side of his command, and this was far more significant than we have been led to believe.

I’ve just started another lecture by Earl Hess about Bragg, and this, too, is a real eye opener.

These lectures are quite a long way down in the chronological list, so you’ll need to scroll down the array for some time before they are presented on the options.

My thanks to you, Greg.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 887

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/29/2018 9:12:26 AM
Greg I agree with Phil, Thanks.

Phil I totally agree with Hess that Bragg's reputation has nowhere else to go but up but I think he is trying to take it a little too high. Great story about his mother being jailed when she was pregnant with him.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4489

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/29/2018 9:21:21 AM
Greg,

I also have viewed some, & it's like being back at college listening to your favorite history professor, so it's a consensus!?

Thanks,
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 3600

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/29/2018 12:30:53 PM

Quote:
Greg I agree with Phil, Thanks.

Phil I totally agree with Hess that Bragg's reputation has nowhere else to go but up but I think he is trying to take it a little too high. Great story about his mother being jailed when she was pregnant with him.
--John R. Price


John ,

Let me confess that when I’ ve been listening to this - and I’ve only heard the first half hour - the thought to the fore of my mind has been “ what does John Price make of this ? “.😁

Happy New Year !

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4489

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/29/2018 3:21:49 PM
Greg, here is the easy link for other MHOer's interested in the C-Span American History Web!?

[Read More]


great site,
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

GregT
Three Rivers, MA, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist
Posts: 94

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/29/2018 4:03:51 PM
Dave, I'm on that site so often I just type cs and it's there.

I didn't know how to present it to others.

Anything easier is better.

Greg

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 2438

Re: 1862 The Battle of Fredericksburg!
Posted on: 12/29/2018 4:12:13 PM
Thanks Greg.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

 Forum Ads from Google