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 (1946-1999) Other 20th Century Battles
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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/3/2019 9:35:55 AM
The Korean War began 25 June 1950, when North Korean armed forces invaded South Korea.

The war’s combat phase lasted until an armistice was signed 27 July 1953.

As part of a United Nations (UN) force consisting of 16 countries, 26,791 Canadian military personnel served in the Korean War, during both the combat phase and as peacekeepers afterward.

The last Canadian soldiers left Korea in 1957.

After the two world wars, Korea remains Canada’s third-bloodiest overseas conflict, taking the lives of 516 Canadians and wounding more than 1,200.

The two Koreas remain technically at war today.


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Regards

Jim
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Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/3/2019 10:23:29 AM
despite their numerical advantage at Kapyong the Chinese had been badly outgunned and they could not overcome the well-trained and well-armed Australians and Canadians.

The battlefield was littered with the corpses of Chinese soldiers, a testament to the discipline and firepower of the defenders. And yet, despite their ultimate defeat, the battle once again demonstrated that the Chinese were tough and skillful soldiers capable of inflicting heavy casualties on the Australians and forcing their eventual withdrawal, albeit both intact and orderly.

As a result of the fighting Australian losses were 32 killed, 59 wounded and three captured, while Canadian casualties included 10 killed and 23 wounded. American casualties included three men killed, 12 wounded and two tanks destroyed, all from A Company, 72nd Heavy Tank Battalion. The New Zealanders lost two killed and five wounded.

In contrast, Chinese losses were far heavier, and may have included 1,000 killed and many more wounded. The Canadians were finally relieved on Hill 677 by a battalion of the 5th US Cavalry Regiment on the evening 26 April.


Regards

Jim
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Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
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Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/4/2019 8:25:55 AM
Hello Jim,

I take it that you hoped that the title of the thread would pique my interest. It did and I do have some knowledge of the Canadians and Australians at Kapyong.

The unit involved at Kapyong, Princess Patricia's Light Infantry (PPCLI) was awarded a Distinguished Unit Citation by the Americans.

The Australians were also so honoured.

I would prefer to discuss the work of the British Commonwealth Infantry Brigades because stopping the Chinese as they rolled toward Seoul via the Kapyong valley was critical and they were stopped at Kapyong. The Chinese never mounted another significant offensive after Kapyong I don't believe.

But the Battle of Kapyong involved several Commonwealth and US units.

The 3rd Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment was on Hill 504.

2nd Battalion of Canada's PPCLI were on Hill 677.

They were supported by Royal New Zealand artillery although I think that that came later as the Kiwis were deployed farther north in support of the South Koreans.

The British battalions had taken heavy casualties at the bloody battle of the Imjin River.

The position of the Aussies and Canadians allowed the British Middlesex Regiment and the NZ gunners to withdraw.

Note that the British 1st Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment received a Presidential Unit Citation for their outstanding work at Imjin. Its losses were significant.

72nd Heavy Tank Battalion of the United States Army provided support in this withdrawal action.

The American marines were holding in the east but there were too many Chinese and they filtered through gaps and headed down the valley.

So the Commonwealth soldiers waited as SK soldiers retreated and then 118th Chinese People's Volunteer Division moved through and attacked the Aussies on April 23, 1951 who held throughout the night until outflanked and forced to withdraw.



First they concentrated on the Australians on 504 and the Aussies held out until the next day before being forced to withdraw.

The situation was so desperate at the Australian position that they had called down artillery fire on one company's position several times throughout the fight.



Then the Chinese came for the PPCLI on 677. They came on in waves with bugles blowing.

The 4 companies of PPCLI threw back the Chinese every time but the hill was surrounded.

At one point, Lt. Mike Levy, ordered his platoon into their trenches and called artillery down on his position as they had been infiltrated. This action probably saved the Canadians.

In the morning, US planes dropped ammunition and food to the exhausted Canadians.

They had held off the Chinese and were relieved by 1st US Cavalry Division.

Canadian KIA was only 10 but the estimates are that they killed 2000 Chinese. That seems high but the soldiers describe cutting down waves of Chinese with their 6 Vickers MG's and rifle fire and grenades.

This was a tremendous victory but you can see the international nature of the defence of South Korea.

For those interested, this is a detailed essay on the Battle of Kapyong published in Canadian Military History, vol. 9

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Australian map of battle

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Photo: Diggers with prisoners.

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Painting of PPCLI

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A forgotten battle in a forgotten war in Canada.

But the Commonwealth did something important here and they stopped the Chinese advance.

A video about Kapyong featuring veterans from Australia, Canada and China.

[Read More]



Cheers,

George




anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/4/2019 8:57:49 AM
Hi George--Yes you guessed correctly; and as per usual--you have done the subject proud.Great illustrations and an eloquent scrip--t for which many thanks

Given the scale, duration, and ferocity of the battle, UN losses were shockingly light.

The Canadians suffered 23 wounded and 10 killed, while 59 Australians were wounded and 32 were killed.

In contrast, Chinese casualties were staggering. Conservative estimates place the number of Chinese killed and wounded at approximately 2,000, a figure that translates to a casualty rate of roughly one in three.

The UN forces made the most of their outstanding terrain advantages, and morale among the troops of the 2PPCLI and the 3RAR remained high despite the obvious precariousness of their positions.

In addition, blisteringly accurate support fire from the artillerymen of the 16th Field Regiment ensured that any massing of Chinese troops would be met with a deadly barrage.

This battle at Kapyong and at the Imjin--virtually stopped the Chinese Spring Offensive in it's tracks and allowed UN forces to advance.


Regards

Jim

---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 8825

Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/4/2019 9:10:35 AM
I mentioned in my first post that the Canadian position may have been saved by Lt. Mike Levy who called down artillery on his position.

The CO of the Canadians was Lt. Col. Jim Stone who was an outstanding soldier in WW2 and a respected officer still in Korea.

Hub Gray was a lieutenant with PPCLI. He is featured in the video provided earlier and is an author who has written about Kapyong.

Please read this short newspaper article in which he explains why Mike Levy may not have been honoured with a medal.

The explanation is alarming and embarrassing if true.

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EDIT: We all have character flaws. Jim Stone is a legend in two regiments.
He served with the Loyal Edmonton regiment and rose to command it in WW2. He was decorated 4 times for gallantry and leadership under fire.

In Italy, Stone led the Loyal Eddies at Ortona as an example. He was a recipient of the MC and the DSO. Later in the war, he was awarded a bar to his DSO.

He left the army after the war but was called back to command the PPCLI in Korea where he won a second bar to his DSO for bravery under fire.

So a legend among those with whom he fought. That's why I was perturbed that his attitude toward a Jewish soldier was so unfair. His men loved him and he is known as a hard task master who cared for his troops.

Cheers,

George

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/4/2019 10:49:16 AM
B---- H--!!that is prejudice in spades.For a commander of a battalion is so vehemently prejudiced it is staggering; and yet he got away with NOT awarding a deserving soldier under his command because he was a Jew.

I made a fool of myself when I stupidly talked about Jews in WW1-- when I really meant Israelis--ie. doing what they wanted to do without let or hindrance.

I was deeply embarrassed as I knew what I had said was deeply offensive and could have crawled into a hole.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 8825

Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/4/2019 11:22:55 AM
Jim I don't know whether this thread has legs but I certainly don't wish to deflect attention to racism in the military.

Perhaps it was the times.

Let me leave it at this. Here is an article that shows that, at least in two armies, Jewish soldiers were perhaps discriminated against when it came time to award medals.

So here once again is Mike Levy's story. What I left out was that Levy had been an SOE operative dropped into Burma. The guerrilla group that he raised and trained did very well. So this guy was the real deal when he volunteered for Korea.

Also included is the story of US soldier, Tibor Rubin, a Hungarian immigrant who came to the US after the war and volunteered for service in Korea.

He is a Medal of Honour recipient but did not receive it until 2005.

All credit to the US forces for investigating discrimination in the way that men were chosen for medals.

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Mike Levy received a coat of arms but no medal but it was because of the tireless work of his friend and fellow PPCLI, Hub Gray who solicited support from the Patricia's Colonel-in-Chief, the former Governor-General Adrienne Clarkson.

She and her family were interned in Hong Kong during WW2 and she emigrated to Canada and is clearly an immigrant success story. Her clout and her association with the Patricia's brought Mike Levy some recognition, at last.




anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/4/2019 12:11:12 PM
Staying with racism George BUT IT DOES SURPRISE ME WHAT ONE CAN FIND ON THE INTERNET


Quote:
For soldiers in Canada’s army in the Second World War, Sundays meant church parades. Catholics assembled on one side, Protestants on the other and everyone else, mainly Jews, stayed in the middle.

The Christians went to their respective churches and the Jews were free for a few hours. One Jewish soldier recalls standing alone in the middle with another five of his compatriots. The next week, though, he says, almost everyone decided to be “Jewish.”

But being Jewish in the Canadian Armed Forces during the Second World War was nothing at all like standing on the sideline and watching.

These proud men and women served with the greatest of honor, determination, and pride. They served on land, in sea, and in the air to protect their nation and their country.
Source--The Jerusalem Post

Opposing Viewpoint


Quote:
Seventy-five years later, David Hart clearly remembers the slaughter that took place on the beaches of Dieppe, France, on Aug. 19, 1942. More than 900 Canadian soldiers were killed and thousands more were wounded in the raid.

Honorary Col. Hart, 99, recalled that disastrous day at an event organized by the Canadian Jewish Experience (CJE), a project celebrating Jewish contributions to Canada over its 150-year history, held at the Royal Montreal Regiment armoury in Westmount, Que., on May 29.

Hart, an army sergeant, controlled the only communication link between the front line and army headquarters.

“I couldn’t believe the order had been given to attack,” said Hart. “I saw so many killed, and yet, they were still sending people to certain death.”


In the midst of the chaos, Hart pleaded with HQ to be permitted to radio two units that were under heavy fire, to tell them that rescue craft would be arriving one hour earlier than planned. His superiors initially refused, but relented on the condition that he do it in less than two minutes.
Source--Canadian Jewish News




Regards

jIM

---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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Posts: 4759

Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/4/2019 2:49:43 PM
Jim & George,

Speaking of surprising attitudes towards Jews, would you believe so called great humanitarian Abraham Lincoln told Gen US Grant today in history to sweep all Jews from the Union Armies areas of operation!? It's in the time line of today in history Jan 4th,! Go figure? What the hell is up with that?? The Civil War in America, & Lincoln is worried about Jews!? Anyone have a web site article or opinion on this really strange action by Lincoln????? Why Abe? Why the Jews??

A puzzled,?
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
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E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1175

Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/4/2019 3:08:27 PM
"Antisemitism has always been less prevalent in the United States than in Europe. The first governmental incident of anti-Jewish sentiment was recorded during the American Civil War, when General Ulysses S. Grant issued an order (quickly rescinded by President Abraham Lincoln) of expulsion against Jews from the portions of Tennessee, Kentucky and Mississippi under his control. (See General Order No. 11.)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism_in_the_United_States

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 8825

Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/4/2019 3:55:57 PM
Once a man put on the uniform, whether he be Jewish or First Nations or any other ethnicity, it seems that the war and the responsibility to have one another's back renders other points of contention, inert for the time being.

I have a story about a Canadian Jewish soldier who landed at Dieppe and was captured. It is partly a family story.

The story is that it was Sapper Saul Shusterman who pulled my Uncle Bob from some wire where he was hung up after being badly wounded by mortar fire. Dieppe was no place to expose yourself even for a second in many of the landing areas.

When the call came to surrender, Saul's buddies told him to hide his identification discs, to lose them.

He did so and from that point on and throughout the POW experience, Saul Shusterman became "Sandy" and I am sorry but I do not recall the Scottish surname that he was given.

Sandy Shusterman became a cabbie in Toronto and he helped organize a Dieppe Veteran's Assoc. reunion in 1967. It was filmed by the CBC and there was contact between the Canadians and former German guards. Shusterman was the only one who would not consent when the guards asked whether they could attend the reunion.

Here's why:

At Stalag VIIIB Lamsdorf there had been POW from many different countries and these included British Jewish soldiers and Palestinian Jews.

The Germans wanted to issue a special identification badge to the Jews that would allow them to determine who was a Jewish soldier and who was not. They were surprised when the British officers protested as they thought that they would appreciate being differentiated from the Palestinians.

And they wanted to deny access to Red Cross parcels for all Jews in the camp but again the British officers stepped forward and said that no British soldier whether Jew or not would accept his Red Cross parcel.

The German officers were distressed by this as the Red Cross representatives would report it. As well, through back door diplomatic channels, the British government made their protests known to the Nazi government. And so, all soldiers including Palestinian Jews received parcels.

I guess that my point is that we should not look at one or two instances whereby a Jewish soldier was denied honours due because of a single act of discrimination and then assume that the Jewish soldiers in the allied armies were not appreciated by the men beside him.


Lastly, I worked for a few years at a school just north of Toronto called Westmount C.I. This area was predominantly Jewish though the school was a public school.

On Remembrance Day, I used to ask the kids if they knew what their grandfathers had done in the war. You see, they all knew about the holocaust. Those horrible experiences were taught to them at home and in school. Most knew the name of a relative who had died in the camps.

What they did not know was that many young Jewish men volunteered for service in their country and fought alongside their fellow Canadians.

A few of of them did come back to tell me that their "Zaydee" (sorry, spelling) had been in the war. I like to think that they learned that many Jews stood up and pushed back and that that gave them some pride.


Jews at Dieppe

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Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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Posts: 4759

Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/4/2019 4:35:04 PM
Canada and Australia were great Allies in the Korean War!
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
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E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1554

Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/4/2019 5:09:10 PM
Kapyong Day is 3 RAR's unit 'day' so to speak, but it hasn't been adopted by the country as the Commemoration Day for Korea like Long Tan Day has for Vietnam.

3 RAR served in Korea from the very start to the very end, first in the 27th Brigade which was disbanded after Kapyong as the 1st Commonwealth Division formed, and later in the 28th Brigade. When Australia sent a second RAR battalion to Korea in 1952 we took over command of 28th Brigade, which had 2 Australian and 2 British battalions and the Kiwi artillery. Interestingly enough while 3 RAR stayed for the duration, 1 RAR was replaced by 2 RAR after a year tour.
---------------
Fact: The phrase "she'll be right mate" increases an Australian's healing process by 40%.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 8825

Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/4/2019 7:32:17 PM
Riain, there was an officer who called artillery down on his position on that hill, numerous times. Was he decorated?

Also, it seems to me that there was a spirited bayonet charge by the Australians at one point. I don't think that it worked but desperate measures were called for.

Cheers,

George

wazza
Sydney , Australia
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant
Posts: 481

Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/5/2019 12:00:00 AM
B company performed a bayonet charge to gain positions that they had been ordered to withdraw from, and the re ordered to take them back.
A costly and unsuccessful attack for the Australian company.

Its sad that more isn't being done to commemorate the Korean war, stuck between WWII and then the Vietnam war.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 7733
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Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/5/2019 6:45:31 AM
In 1950 the Royal Canadian Regiment was called upon to contribute to Canada's forces for the Korean War.

A new Active Service Force (Special Force) was to be raised, and the regiment expanded to a two-battalion, then a three-battalion, organization.

The 2nd Battalion, followed by the 1st and 3rd Battalions, each saw service in Korea. The 2nd Battalion helped stabilize the 38th parallel, most notably at the Chail-li sector.


In October 1952, the 1st Battalion fought the Chinese at the battle of Kowang San (Hill 355 – Little Gibraltar). It was replaced by the 3rd Battalion, which took over the Jamestown Line on Hill 187, where it fought one of the last engagements before the armistice in 1953.

After the end of the Korean War, the regiment was reduced to two battalions, when the 3rd Battalion was disbanded in July 1954.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 8825

Re: Canada's participation in the Korean War
Posted on: 1/5/2019 6:50:50 AM
Too true wazza. A couple of our historians have written books about the Korean war.

What struck me was the description of the sad feeling that many of the Canadian soldiers had when they rotated home. There was no fanfare. They didn't really expect much but really there was nothing.

You got off the ship and onto a train and went home. People in shops and restaurants weren't curious about your service.

All of those men were old enough to remember the way that the WWII men were treated when they came home. In our case, many of the soldiers who had fought in Korea had only come home from WWII, a few years before.

I think that the reaction at home was much like it is when the soldiers are deployed as peacekeepers. Kind of ho-hum.

How were the Korean vets welcomed home to Australia?

Cheers,

George

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