MHO Home   Forum Home   Help   Register   Login
 
 
Welcome to MilitaryHistoryOnline.com.
You are not signed in.
The current time is: 9/19/2018 3:42:24 AM
 (1939-1945) WWII Battles
AuthorMessage
anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
Posts: 6851
Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/13/2018 10:49:14 AM
The most famous fighter aircraft used in the Battle of Britain were the British Hawker Hurricane and Supermarine Spitfire Mk I and the German Messerschmitt Bf 109 E variant (Emil) single-engined fighters.

Although the Spitfire has attracted more attention,the Hurricanes were more numerous and were responsible for most of the German losses, especially in the early part of the battle. The turn-around time (re-arm and refuel) for the Spitfire was 26 minutes, while the Hurricane's was 9 minutes, which increased its effectiveness.

The Hurricanes were tasked to take out the bombers--the spitfires to mix it with the Me 109's--

[Read More]

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
Posts: 6851
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/13/2018 12:02:38 PM
The Spitfire and Bf 109E were well-matched in speed and agility, and both were somewhat faster than the Hurricane. The slightly larger Hurricane was regarded as an easier aircraft to fly and was effective against Luftwaffe bombers.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
Posts: 3895
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/13/2018 12:49:03 PM
For the RAF the Hurricane, & Spitfires were sweet Fighters!

[Read More]

Go RAF!
Dave
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
Posts: 6851
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/13/2018 1:22:16 PM
DAVE

The Hurricanes outnumbered Spitfires by far and carried the brunt of the most bombers shot down.

Spitfire was considered too valuable and fragile because of it's lower numbers to be used against bombers when it fared better to fend off the Jerries coming from the sun

If you look at them the Spitfire is by far the more complicated piece of machinery compared to the simple Hurricane.

Reegards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 7825
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/13/2018 1:55:02 PM
Jim, the Spit is much prettier, don't you think. When I look at the Spit and Hurricane, one looks like a thoroughbred and the other a work horse.

I am not a pilot but I have seen both up close. The Spitfire is sleek and agile looking.

The Hurricane looks hard and tough.

These are the musings of a non pilot.

Hawker Hurricane



Supermarine Spitfire




And a better photo for comparison. It's bigger so I put it in a READMORE

[Read More]


If you can't always tell the difference, this article does a comparison with pics.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
Posts: 2329
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/13/2018 2:41:38 PM

Quote:
"the Jerries"

Reegards
Jim--anemone


I presume you are referring to the Germans. You Island Monkey.

Just joking.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

dt509er
Santa Rosa, CA, USA
Posts: 601
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/13/2018 11:42:40 PM
Here is one of my favorite flybys...a Hawker Hurricane!!

[Read More]
---------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..."

I take offense to your perception of being offended!

“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
Posts: 6851
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/14/2018 3:41:27 AM
Big Problem

The use of carburettors was calculated to give a higher specific power output, due to the lower temperature, hence greater density, of the fuel/air mixture compared to injected systems.

However, the Merlin's float controlled carburettor meant that both Spitfires and Hurricanes were unable to pitch nose down into a steep dive. The contemporary Bf 109E, which had direct fuel injection, could "bunt" into a high-power dive to escape attack, leaving the pursuing aircraft behind because its fuel had been forced out of the carburettor's float chamber by the effects of negative g-force (g).

RAF fighter pilots soon learned to "half-roll" their aircraft before diving to pursue their opponents. "Miss Shilling's orifice",[nb 7] a restrictor in the fuel supply line to restrict flow together with a diaphragm fitted in the float chamber to contain fuel under negative G, went some way towards curing the fuel starvation in a dive; however, at less than maximum power a fuel-rich mixture still resulted.

Another improvement was made by moving the fuel outlet from the bottom of the S.U. carburettor to exactly halfway up the side, which allowed the fuel to flow equally well under negative or positive g.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
Posts: 6851
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/14/2018 4:52:03 AM
NB.Please see previous post

SQUADRONS THAT TOOK PART IN THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN

1 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded JX, Operated from Northolt & Tangmere
1RCAF SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded YO, Operated from Croydon & Northolt
3 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded QO, Operated from Kenley & Wick(Scotland)
17 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded YB, Operated from Debden & Martlesham Heath
19 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded QV, Operated from Fowlemere & Duxford
23 SQUADRON: Blenheims, Coded YP, Operated from Colyweston & Wittering
25 SQUADRON: Blenheims & Beaufighters, Coded ZK, Operated from North Weald
29 SQUADRON: Blenheims & Beaufighters, Coded RO, Operated from Debden
32 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded GZ, Operated from Biggin Hill & Acklington(Rest)
41 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded EB, Hornchurch & Catterick
43 SQUADRON "China-British": Hurricanes, Coded FT, Operated from Tangmere & Northolt
46 SQUADRON "Uganda": Hurricanes, Coded PO, Operated from Stapleford
54 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded KL, Operated from Hornchurch & Catterick(Rest)
56 SQUADRON "Punjab": Hurricanes, Coded US, Operated from North Weald & Boscombe Down
64 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded SH, Operated from Kenley, Hornchurch & Biggin Hill
65 SQUADRON "East India": Spitfires, Coded YT, Operated from Hornchurch & Turnhouse(Rest)
66 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded LZ, Operated from Coltishall & Kenley
72 SQUADRON "Basutoland": Spitfires, Coded RN, Operated from Drem & Biggin Hill
73 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded TP, Operated from Church Fenton
74 SQUADRON "Trinidad": Spitfires, Coded ZP, Operated from Hornchurch & Biggin Hill
79 SQUADRON "Madras Presidency": Hurricanes, Coded NV, Operated from Acklington & Biggin Hill
85 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded VY, Operated from Debden & Croydon
87 SQUADRON "United Provinces": Hurricanes, Coded LK, Operated from Exeter
92 SQUADRON "East India": Spitfires, Coded QJ, Operated from Hornchurch & Biggin Hill
111 SQUADRON "Treble One": Hurricanes, Northolt & Drem(Rest)
141 SQUADRON: Defiants, Coded TW, Operated from West Malling & Biggin Hill
145 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded SO, Operated from Tangmere & Westhampnet
151 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded DZ, Operated from North Weald
152 SQUADRON "Hyderabad": Spitfires, Coded UM, Operated from Warmwell
213 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded AK, Operated from Exeter & Leconfield
219 SQUADRON: Blenheims, Coded FK, Operated from Catterick & Redhill
222 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded ZD, Operated from Kirkon-in-Lindsay(Rest) & Hornchurch
229 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded HB, Operated from Wittering & Northolt
232 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded EF, Operated from Sumburgh
234 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded AZ, Operated from Church Fenton & Middle Wallop
235 SQUADRON: Blenheims, Coded LA, Operated from Thorney Island & Bircham Newton
236 SQUADRON: Blenheims, Coded FA, Operated from Thorney Island
238 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded VK, Operated from Middle Wallop & St Eval
242 SQUADRON "Canadian": Hurricanes, Coded LE, Operated from Coltishall & Duxford
245 SQUADRON "Northern Rhodesia": Hurricanes, Coded DR, Operated from Aldergrove
247 SQUADRON "China-British": Gladiators, Coded HP, Operated from St Eval
248 SQUADRON: Blenheims, Coded WR, Operated from Dyce
249 SQUADRON "Gold Coast": Coded GN, Operated from Church Fenton/Boscombe Down/Nth Weald
253 SQUADRON "Hyderabad": Hurricanes, Coded SW, Operated from Turnhouse & Kenley
257 SQUADRON "Burma": Hurricanes, Coded DT, Operated from Northolt & Debden
263 SQUADRON: Whirlwinds, Coded HE, Operated from Drem
264 SQUADRON "Madras Presidency": Defiants, Coded PS, Operated from Fowlmere & Hornchurch
266 SQUADRON "Rhodesia": Spitfires, Coded UO, Operated from Wittering & Hornchurch
302 SQUADRON "Poznan": Hurricanes, Coded WX, Operated from Northolt & Westhampnet
303 SQUADRON "Warsaw": Hurricanes, Coded RF, Operated from Northolt & Leconfield(Rest)
310 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded NN, Operated from Duxford
312 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded DU, Operated from Speke
501 SQUADRON "County of Gloucester" Auxiliary Air Force Hurricanes, Coded SD, Operated from Middle Wallop/Gravesend/Kenley
504 SQUADRON "County of Nottingham" Auxiliary Air Force Hurricanes, Coded TM, Operated from Wick/Hendon/Filton
600 SQUADRON "City of London" Auxiliary Air Force Blenheims, Coded BQ, Operated from Northolt
601 SQUADRON "County of London" Auxiliary Air Force Hurricanes, Coded UF, Operated from Middle Wallop & Tangmere
602 SQUADRON "City of Glasgow" Auxiliary Air Force Spitfires, Coded LO, Operated from Drem & Westhampnet
603 SQUADRON "City of Edinburgh" Auxiliary Air Force Spitfires, Coded XT, Operated from Drem/Turnhouse/Hornchurch
604 SQUADRON "County of Middlesex" Auxiliary Air Force Blenheims/Beaufighters, Coded NG, Operated from Middle Wallop
605 SQUADRON "County of Warwick" Auxiliary Air Force Hurricanes, Coded UP, Operated from Wick & Croydon
607 SQUADRON "County of Durham" Auxiliary Air Force Hurricanes, Coded AF, Operated from Usworth & Tangmere
609 SQUADRON "West Riding" Auxiliary Air Force Spitfires, Coded PR, Operated from Middle Wallop & Warmwell
610 SQUADRON "County of Chester" Auxiliary Air Force Spitfires, Coded DW, Operated from Biggin Hill & Acklington(Rest)
611 SQUADRON "West Lancashire" Auxiliary Air Force Spitfires, Coded FY, Operated from Digby
615 SQUADRON "County of Surrey" Auxiliary Air Force Hurricanes, Coded KW, Operated from Kenley & Northolt
616 SQUADRON "South Yorkshire" Auxiliary Air Force Spitfires, Coded YQ, Operated from Leconfield/Kenley/Coltishall/Kirton-in-Lindsay


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
Posts: 6851
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/14/2018 8:41:52 AM
During the summer of 1940 as the air war raged in the skies above England the pre-war tactics developed by the RAF were to be tested. Early skirmishes with the Luftwaffe would lead to valuable lessons being learned, this would see changes in the tactics employed by the aircraft of Fighter Command.

During the years preceding World War 2 the prevalent idea that affected military thinking at the time was as Stanley Baldwin, leader of the Conservatives, stated in a speech to the British Parliament in 1932 was that “the bomber will always get through” therefore limiting the damage enemy aircraft could do would be the responsibility of the Royal Air Force.

[Read More]

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 2010
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/14/2018 7:35:44 PM
I'm with you, Trevor. Sounds like the opening sections of Beyond the Fringe's "Aftermyth of War":

"Before I knew it, Jerrie was coming at me.

I let him have it and must have caught him because he spiralled past me, out of control. I got a glimpse of him as he passed. And ... you know ... he smiled.

Funny thing, war. ..."

A must for anyone with an interest in WW2 and a bent sense of reality!

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 2010
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/14/2018 8:54:41 PM
Sorry, desperately trying to play catchup. Good thread.

Before I say anything, its important to accept the fact that the Bf-109, Hawker Hurricane, and Supermarine Spitfire marks were brilliant designs that all came about as fighter design changed from biplane to mono-wing, and from cloth to metal sheathing, and from focusing on manouevering to realizing power was what defined fighter capability.

Jim raises one of the design flaws of the Merlin, and how RAF pilots learned their way around that rather major limitation.

It was not the only problem, and I'm not bashing the RAF because flaws were found on both sides. Some were sensible but mistaken basic design decisions. Some were as a result of basic design decisions. Some arose from the rapid changes in what made a great a/c.

If I've got the information incorrect, that's my problem and I apologize. But at least some of what I'm going to say comes from earlier discussions on MHO about subjects closely related to this one. I first learned about them here. To be honest, I think it was from Redcoat, but I'm not going to hold him accountable for what I say.

The issues are basically three: wing design; armament; undercarriage;. Often, they are related.

One of the distinguishing features of the Bf-109 and Spitfire is the thin cross-section of their wings. It is argued that the thinness at the wing root (where the wing joins the body) provides an indication of the efficiency of the wing. The Hurricane has a thick wing root. Any picture of a Hurricane cannot hide that. And IIUC, a thick wing root affects performance because if affects air flow and lift. Not just in fighters, but in any a/c. Take a look at the Short Stirling: wide wing-root; poor lift ratio; low ceiling. In fighter term, applied to the Hurricane, you have less maneouverability, less agility in flight, and a slower speed.

The wings of the initial Bf-109s were very thin indeed. And very clean aerodynamically. Part of this was achieved by mounting the undercarriage of the Bf-109 on the body, which makes sense when a/c could still land on grass fields or when an a/c had to be shipped from point A to point B. The body of the Bf-109 could rest on its undercarriage and have it's wings removed and replaced. When talking about wing efficiency, that was significant.

Spits, on the other hand, had a "wide landing stance", in that their undercarriage was housed in the wings and provided a broad landing stance. This would become important during BoB. While the German decision to house the undercarriage in the body of the a/c allowed the wing to be effective, the narrow landing footprint caused many crashes of Luftwaffe pilots wounded, exhausted, skosh fuel or otherwise in trouble from sticking the craft easily. And in the BoB, a craft lost in landing is still a craft lost.

The Spit's undercarriage locked into it's wings, which became pretty standard. It didn't proved the repair facility the Bf-109s had, but it did provide a measure of difference in having a salvageable landing when things had gone south. But. But. But. The wheel mechanisms took up a lot of room, and required that the armament be moved further out than might be desired. And the relative fragility of the Spit wing meant that its armament sprayed more than the Hurricane, which had a thicker wing root, or even (in theory) the Bf-109, whose wings were uncluttered by landing gear.

That's one of the reasons the Hurricane was successful against the Luftwaffe bombers. It was faster than the He-IIIs and the various Do-17 Marks, had a sturdy wing to direct fire as accurately as was possible at the time, and could rely on Spits to handle the fighter coverage of Bf-109s and -110s.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
Posts: 6851
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/15/2018 3:42:12 AM
Many thanks Brian your thoughts are always welcome.Should you continue I would be interested in some thought about perfoformances,armament,etc.,e

This narrative makes no attempt at being a full and detailed history of the Spitfire I or Messerschmitt BF 109E, rather its intent is to examine in detail, with emphasis placed on the use of primary source archival material supported by personal accounts, the performance aspects of these aircraft that most books only briefly – and frequently incorrectly - mention.

The Spitfire first flew in March 1936. Entry into service was with No. 19 Squadron at Duxford in August 1938 while 18 more squadrons were equipped with Spitfires by the start of the Battle of Britain in July 1940.

The first BF 109 prototype flew in September 1935, ironically powered by a Rolls-Royce Kestrel engine. The first production model, the BF 109B-1, was delivered in February 1937. The BF 109 E, the varient that saw action during the Battle of Britain, entered into service early in 1939.

Given the multiple aircraft combat environment in which they fought, the performance of the Spitfire Mk I and the Messershmitt Bf-109E was sufficiently close that the results of combat would generally fall to initial position, numbers, tactics and pilot experience.----

[Read More]

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
Posts: 6851
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/20/2018 10:31:44 AM
P/O H.R. "Dizzy" Allen (later Wing Commander) of No. 66 Squadron, echoing Tuck, wrote of the matchup with an eye on tactical doctrine:

"We were better at dogfighting than the fighter arm of the Luftwaffe, but only because both the Spitfire and Hurricane were more manoeuvrable than the Messerschmitts 109 and 110. In fact, dog-fighting ability was not all that important during the war. Fighter attacks were hit-or-miss affairs on average.

Either you dived with the sun behind you and caught him napping, or he did that to you. I occasionally had to mix it in dog-fights with German fighter pilots, and either I would shoot them down or they would shoot me down, or I would lose sight of them because their camouflage was better than mine.

The reason we were more manoeuvrable than them was because the Me-109 had a higher wing loading than our fighters. This gave us advantages, but they also had certain benefits. We had no idea that the Daimler-Benz engines in the 109s were fuelled by direct-injection methods. Our carburettors were a definate handicap.

The Germans could push down the nose of their fighters, scream into a vertical dive, as if beginning a bunt, and accelerate like made away from us. When we tried that tactic, our carburettors would flood under negative gee, and our engines would stall momentarily - as they frequently did - which lost us all-important seconds during the engagments "

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

redcoat
Stockport, UK
Posts: 309
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/26/2018 8:28:14 AM

Quote:


Spits, on the other hand, had a "wide landing stance", in that their undercarriage was housed in the wings and provided a broad landing stance. This would become important during BoB. While the German decision to house the undercarriage in the body of the a/c allowed the wing to be effective, the narrow landing footprint caused many crashes of Luftwaffe pilots wounded, exhausted, skosh fuel or otherwise in trouble from sticking the craft easily. And in the BoB, a craft lost in landing is still a craft lost.

--brian grafton
The wheels of the Bf-109 were further apart (2.1 meters)when on the ground, compared to the Spitfire (1.68 meters). However the Bf 109 designers achieved this by slightly splaying the wheels outwards, instead of the Spitfire whose wheels were vertical to the ground, and unfortunately for its pilots this accentuated the Bf 109's tendency to ground loop.



Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
Posts: 3895
Re: Fighter Aircraft of the Battle of Britain
Posted on: 2/26/2018 10:45:37 AM

Quote:
P/O H.R. "Dizzy" Allen (later Wing Commander) of No. 66 Squadron, echoing Tuck, wrote of the matchup with an eye on tactical doctrine:

"We were better at dogfighting than the fighter arm of the Luftwaffe, but only because both the Spitfire and Hurricane were more manoeuvrable than the Messerschmitts 109 and 110. In fact, dog-fighting ability was not all that important during the war. Fighter attacks were hit-or-miss affairs on average.

Either you dived with the sun behind you and caught him napping, or he did that to you. I occasionally had to mix it in dog-fights with German fighter pilots, and either I would shoot them down or they would shoot me down, or I would lose sight of them because their camouflage was better than mine.

The reason we were more manoeuvrable than them was because the Me-109 had a higher wing loading than our fighters. This gave us advantages, but they also had certain benefits. We had no idea that the Daimler-Benz engines in the 109s were fuelled by direct-injection methods. Our carburettors were a definate handicap.

The Germans could push down the nose of their fighters, scream into a vertical dive, as if beginning a bunt, and accelerate like made away from us. When we tried that tactic, our carburettors would flood under negative gee, and our engines would stall momentarily - as they frequently did - which lost us all-important seconds during the engagments "

Regards

Jim
--anemone



Hi Jim,

I'm currently reading "Battle for the Skies", by Michael Paterson, & he uses interviews and quotes from both sides. He would be inclined to back your contention that the RAF won most of the Dog Fights over the Luftwaffe! ( even the German Pilots talked of their respect for especially the Spitfire!) Plus the guy is a great WWII War Plane Artist!

Cool book,
MD

---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."